One way to stop a corner cross

[YoungGun]

You sure are fixated on “unleashing a stable of highly competent attorneys”, and name
dropping rich folks.

Thank you
Highfastflyer, we know people with money have lawyers. That's not the discussion at hand. They can yell and scream and wave all they want about civil liabilities and such, but they stand the same chance of setting case law precedent in detriment to their interest just the same as any one of us. "Phillip Anschultz and his stable of lawyers" would be awfully disappointed I imagine if they did contest and a judge ruled in favor of the corner-hopper, as it could set legal precedent for the rest of the folks looking to do the same. Any Judge is going to take "reasonableness" into account, some more so than others, and at the end of the day, while money certainly helps with court, it doesn't guarantee victory. Let's move along...

 

[Highfastflyer]

So, I take it you don’t know of any specific examples of a civil trespass case and/or judgement from corner hopping in Wyoming.

You sure are fixated on “unleashing a stable of highly competent attorneys”, and name
dropping rich folks.

What financial motive do you have and what ranch(es) do you represent?

Listen to Randy’s podcast, he is the one pointing out the blatant Civil Tresoass. I have no motives just pointing out the obvious of why he and I wouldn’t attempt it. I think it could be resolved by legislation and compensating landowners for easements across their lands like North Dakota has but it will take some big money to do it which the state isn’t willing to pay for it. If you want to be the Guinea pig against the Koch brothers be my guest. I just point out why it is likely a Civil trespass, ie you can’t cross a corner pin without infringing upon and entering someone’s sovereign space. Caveat Emptor.

 

[Highfastflyer]

Thank you
Highfastflyer, we know people with money have lawyers. That's not the discussion at hand. They can yell and scream and wave all they want about civil liabilities and such, but they stand the same chance of setting case law precedent in detriment to their interest just the same as any one of us. "Phillip Anschultz and his stable of lawyers" would be awfully disappointed I imagine if they did contest and a judge ruled in favor of the corner-hopper, as it could set legal precedent for the rest of the folks looking to do the same. Any Judge is going to take "reasonableness" into account, some more so than others, and at the end of the day, while money certainly helps with court, it doesn't guarantee victory. Let's move along...

I agree. I have pointed out many times the path forward is paying those landowners for an easement much like North Dakota has. As I see it this is the best possible solution as the Courts and criminal trespass laws haven’t fixed all those landlocked lands with 150+ years of Checkerboard land problems.

 

[YoungGun]

I agree. I have pointed out many times the path forward is paying those landowners for an easement much like North Dakota has. As I see it this is the best possible solution as the Courts and criminal trespass laws haven’t fixed all those landlocked lands with 150+ years of Checkerboard land problems.

North Dakota placed those "easements" into domain with statehood- nothing retroactive. Much like Montana has established the inside of high water lines as public. I'm not disagreeing that easements couldn't be purchased, but North Dakota is a poor example, as those borders were established the same time period as the deeds.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Equating North Dakota’s retention of public transportation rights on section lines to eminent domain and/or easement acquisition is apples to pine trees. All private landowners in North Dakota entered into their private property ownership under the condition of that right of the state, and they received no compensation from the state for that right. The right of travel on the section lines never belonged to the landowners in the first place…that’s the whole point here. Far, far different than trying to acquire access rights after the fact, which would be considered a taking. Completely different animal.

Also, it seems you’re putting the cart before the horse in suggesting millions of public dollars be spent to secure easements which are, so far, legally unproven to be necessary. Plus any government intervention in private property rights in the west is extremely contentious. The scale of easement acquisition you are talking about is completely unrealistic. What you keep pointing out as “the path forward” is no such thing.

And please don’t respond with the same “stable of attorneys” “North Dakota easement” junk. You’re starting to sound like a bot.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Listen to Randy’s podcast, he is the one pointing out the blatant Civil Tresoass. I have no motives just pointing out the obvious of why he and I wouldn’t attempt it. I think it could be resolved by legislation and compensating landowners for easements across their lands like North Dakota has but it will take some big money to do it which the state isn’t willing to pay for it. If you want to be the Guinea pig against the Koch brothers be my guest. I just point out why it is likely a Civil trespass, ie you can’t cross a corner pin without infringing upon and entering someone’s sovereign space. Caveat Emptor.

Oh good, another name drop, but no specific example of this ever happening. Yes, I’ve heard Randy‘s podcast, and I fully understand the difference between civil and criminal trespass.

The biggest question, and one no one can seem to answer is what taking actually occurs when you cross a corner pin. At some point, a highly competent stable of lawyers may very well pursue this in a court of law, at which point we will get an answer. Until then, I think it’s a lot of Bluff.

 

[YoungGun]

"Not Recommended" and "Advised", are very different legal terms than "Illegal/Not Allowed" and "Required". Basically, FWP doesn't want to touch it and leaves it to local Law Enforcement to cite and local County Attorney Office's to prosecute. I imagine most states are this way. Obviously contesting it from either side of the argument runs a high "risk/reward" in that it could be deemed illegal, eliminating the gray area some hunters are willing to operate under, or it could be deemed legal, effectively unlocking thousands of acres of land that landowners have benefited from having exclusive access to for years. I'd argue that in either case, "Phillip Anschutz and his stable of highly competent lawyers ( )" have more to lose than Joe Blow the deer hunter since most sportsmen and women currently don't benefit from checkerboard any way, while all landowners bordering checkerboard certainly do.

 

[Highfastflyer]

Oh good, another name drop, but no specific example of this ever happening. Yes, I’ve heard Randy‘s podcast, and I fully understand the difference between civil and criminal trespass.

The biggest question, and one no one can seem to answer is what taking actually occurs when you cross a corner pin. At some point, a highly competent stable of lawyers may very well pursue this in a court of law, at which point we will get an answer. Until then, I think it’s a lot of Bluff.

This is a property rights issue, Most all attorneys I have spoken to have opined that swinging your foot over the landowner's air space at that infinite intersection of the properties would constitute Civil Trespass. This opens your action up to damages and loss of private enjoyment of the land for a landowner.

With Civil Trespass, this is the landowner claiming you infringed on his property rights and he, not the State/County attorney, must take you to court to demonstrate that he was damaged and prove the amount of damages that he incurred. So, if he prevailed under a Civil Trespass case, what would be the damages he could claim? Many attorneys tell me the court could award what the price of a guided hunt on private land would cost, so about $5000. You could not have harvested the animal you hunted or gone on that hunting trip without trespassing and infringing upon the private enjoyment of the private landowner’s lands. The bigger cost could be $20,000 to $100,000 in both the defendants and the plaintiffs attorney fees, especially in states like Idaho with the new trespass law.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

This is a property rights issue, Most all attorneys I have spoken to have opined that swinging your foot over the landowner's air space at that infinite intersection of the properties would constitute Civil Trespass. This opens your action up to damages and loss of private enjoyment of the land for a landowner.

With Civil Trespass, this is the landowner claiming you infringed on his property rights and he, not the State/County attorney, must take you to court to demonstrate that he was damaged and prove the amount of damages that he incurred. So, if he prevailed under a Civil Trespass case, what would be the damages he could claim? Many attorneys tell me the court could award what the price of a guided hunt on private land would cost, so about $5000. You could not have harvested the animal you hunted without trespassing and infringing upon the private enjoyment of the private landowner’s lands. The bigger cost could be $20,000 to $100,000 in both the defendants and the plaintiffs attorney fees, especially in states like Idaho with the new trespass law.

So one more time, any examples of this in Wyoming?

If it was BLM land I could have helicoptered in to, it’s pretty tough to make any logical argument I could not have killed the animal without trespassing.

Which ranch(es) do you represent or are you affiliated with?

 

[Highfastflyer]

So one more time, any examples of this in Wyoming?

If it was BLM land I could have helicoptered in to, it’s pretty tough to make any logical argument I could not have killed the animal without trespassing.

Which ranch(es) do you represent or are you affiliated with?

Flying in is specifically authorised in statute so no infringement of private property occurred. Contact the county attorneys office if you want specific trespassing case examples. I represent no ranch other than a small parcel I own and it has legally accessible state lands adjacent via a county road. Why do you insist on infringing upon property rights? I just try to follow what is established and Legal.

 

[Eric24]

My stable of competent attorneys, the gaggle of geese, pride of lions, troop of baboons, and pod of whales I have consulted have all suggested to me @Highfastflyer may have some skin in this game. I'll reserve judgement pending further review.

 

[Highfastflyer]

"Not Recommended" and "Advised", are very different legal terms than "Illegal/Not Allowed" and "Required". Basically, FWP doesn't want to touch it and leaves it to local Law Enforcement to cite and local County Attorney Office's to prosecute. I imagine most states are this way. Obviously contesting it from either side of the argument runs a high "risk/reward" in that it could be deemed illegal, eliminating the gray area some hunters are willing to operate under, or it could be deemed legal.

Don’t forget what the BLM says about corner crossing.

“It is illegal to cross public land at corners. Some areas in the West are “checker-boarded” with public and private lands, or otherwise have sections of public land that are difficult to reach. When the only place tracts of public land touch is at a corner, it may seem like a logical thing to step over the corner from one piece of public land to another. Every year hunters armed with GPS units and maps give it a try. Unfortunately, it is illegal to cross at boundary corners. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/access-tips-hunting-blm-lands

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Contact the county attorneys office if you want specific trespassing case examples.

Got it. So, in other words you can’t directly reference any?

 

[Highfastflyer]

Got it. So, in other words you can’t directly reference any?

I don’t need to as I follow established access rules while hunting. Plenty of legally accessible lands without opening myself up to lawsuits and trespassing citations. Just as Randy follows the law even hiring a helicopter occasionally.

 

[Dakotakid]

Can someone give me the name of Randy’s podcast about the issue?
I looked in my library but the descriptions didn’t trigger.

 

[Highfastflyer]

My stable of competent attorneys, the gaggle of geese, pride of lions, troop of baboons, and pod of whales I have consulted have all suggested to me @Highfastflyer may have some skin in this game. I'll reserve judgement pending further review.

I do have skin in the game, my own and I don’t want to open it up to lawsuits and trespassing citations when there are plenty of good legally accessible lands to recreate upon without infringing upon other landowners property rights. https://www.adventure-journal.com/2018/08/trespassing-idaho-now-cost-100000-worse/

 

[WapitiBob]

Got it. So, in other words you can’t directly reference any?

there are none in WY

Call any WY DA's office and ask if the prosecute, when they say "yes we do", as for a case number. You won't get one, they don't exist.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

there are none in WY

Call any WY DA's office and ask if the prosecute, when they say "yes we do", as for a case number. You won't get one, they don't exist.

Better yet see if any lawyer in the state will represent you, as a landowner against a trespasser, in a contingency fee arrangement, ie lawyer gets paid only if they win.

 

[Dakotakid]

If you represent rich landowner, your fee is by the 6 minute. Every shower you take where you think about the case, ever lunch you have to discuss the case and every nightmare you have dreaming of the case is billable.

 

[Carnage2011]

We aren’t going to solve this issue until someone actually gets taken to court over it.