One way to stop a corner cross

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JLS

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We aren’t going to solve this issue until someone actually gets taken to court over it.
Absolutely correct, but I also agree with the assertion the civil judgment is far from a slam dunk or it would have already happened. That’s why I keep asking for examples to back up the claims of a stable of highly competent attorneys coming after Average Joe for corner hopping.
 

wllm1313

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Absolutely correct, but I also agree with the assertion the civil judgment is far from a slam dunk or it would have already happened. That’s why I keep asking for examples to back up the claims of a stable of highly competent attorneys coming after Average Joe for corner hopping.
I think if anything the Idaho law is proof of how flawed the civil argument really is, the Idaho law only exists because otherwise a judge couldn’t award damages.

If you have a ton of money you can harass people all sorts of ways, is the entire point of this that we should tiptoe around the wealthy and avoid their ire?

Don’t make eye contact with a billionaire at Starbucks or he might sue you for your impudence.
 

Highfastflyer

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I think if anything the Idaho law is proof of how flawed the civil argument really is, the Idaho law only exists because otherwise a judge couldn’t award damages.

If you have a ton of money you can harass people all sorts of ways, is the entire point of this that we should tiptoe around the wealthy and avoid their ire?

Don’t make eye contact with a billionaire at Starbucks or he might sue you for your impudence.
Now you’re starting to understand why it’s best not to infringe upon these people. This is the ultra rich’s playground turf.

The Idaho law was written without any consultation with sportsmen and recreationists, raises the trespassing fine to $500 and makes civil trespass a strict liability offense. Kahle Becker, former deputy attorney general for Idaho, says that trespassers who challenge the law and then lose in court will be responsible for the plaintiff’s attorney fees. This could cost anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000.
 
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Sytes

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@Highfastflyer , thanks for the link.


Found this excerpt worth noting from the article:
“You could bankrupt someone for innocently stepping on some undelineated sagebrush,” says Becker. The Idaho Sheriffs’ Association and the Idaho Prosecuting Attorneys Association noted that the bill was vague and contradictory and difficult to enforce."

Sounds political posturing moreso than enforcement / judicial minded.

Someone asked earlier about link to Newberg's podcast regarding corner crossing:


I tried to locate a civil/criminal case earlier and closest I found turned to be an 80' overlap of private land the Defendants thought was a corner to cross... and tried to claim a personally established precedence for having crossed through private for some twenty years. They lost the case and appeal.
 
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wllm1313

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I tried to locate a civil/criminal case earlier and closest I found turned to be an 80' overlap of private land the Defendants thought was a corner to cross... and tried to claim a personally established precedence for having crossed through private for some twenty years. They lost the case and appeal.
So not corner crossing case but rather someone trying to establish a prescribed easement? Was this a quiet title suit?

I think what sets corner crossing apart is you are trespassing, but you aren’t effecting someone nor trying to deprive them of property, which is what I assume was happening in the case you alluded to, correct?
 

wllm1313

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@Highfastflyer , thanks for the link.


Found this excerpt worth noting from the article:
“You could bankrupt someone for innocently stepping on some undelineated sagebrush,” says Becker. The Idaho Sheriffs’ Association and the Idaho Prosecuting Attorneys Association noted that the bill was vague and contradictory and difficult to enforce."

Interesting article, though likely because of when it was published it’s highly speculative. Couple points, “Could” and “Might”, I’m not an attorney but I’ve done a lot of land work with attorneys and “could” can mean a 1% chance. An attorney is going to tell you to pursue a quiet title action or open probate to cure a title defect when you can basically get to the same end point with a Bargain and Sale deed/ Quit Claim. Yes the later doesn’t cure the defect but it gets you mostly there and costs a fraction of the former.

Second, 100k in legal fees. That means someone is spending a lot on a corner cross trespass suit. They have a huge retainer and have to provide the money on the front end, it also means they are willing to take the risk of losing 100k. You really have to be willing to walk away from that money as the plaintiff. Essentially that leaves very wealthy individuals.

Third point, has a billionaire ever filed a trespass case for corner crossing? @JLS apparently that is really the question. Has Mr. Turner, either directly or through one of his subsidiaries filed a case. I’ve definitely heard stories about the flying D, but every story I heard was straight up trespassing. Shooting elk on the property, shed hunting .5 miles into the property, etc.

My speculation is this is a bit of a king snakecoral snake situation. The landowners who seem to get their panties in a twist about corner crossing are small potatoes folks who can’t afford to pursue civil action. They try to paint the situation as evil billionaires are going to get you, but the Koch bros don’t really care and that guy is just trying to keep you off “his” section of state land by trying to create a false connection between corner crossing and the wrath of billionaires.

I know the Wilks have fought public access in the Durfee hills but that’s not corner crossing.

I ran this topic by a OG CEO a while back and this was his paraphrased response; honestly we don’t own much surface, but if I ran a company that did I wouldn’t care, our ops team isn’t going to care, really as long as the HSE guy doesn’t see it happen no one is going to say anything.

Would love learn something here if anyone has an actual corner crossing case, demonstrating I’m an idiot.
 

Hunting Wife

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Even when citations have been written and things have gone to court, the issue still appears far from settled.



 

Carnage2011

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Now you’re starting to understand why it’s best not to infringe upon these people. This is the ultra rich’s playground turf.

The Idaho law was written without any consultation with sportsmen and recreationists, raises the trespassing fine to $500 and makes civil trespass a strict liability offense. Kahle Becker, former deputy attorney general for Idaho, says that trespassers who challenge the law and then lose in court will be responsible for the plaintiff’s attorney fees. This could cost anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000.
I don’t know if ive ever seen someone so afraid of wealthy people. Relax man…if you are so scared of them taking you to court then don’t do it. A lot of these guys are smart and have money for a reason. Not because they blow it on dumb shit that they may or may not win. In Montana it says corner hopping is not recommended. If it was a slam dunk case for someone then it would say illegal. One of my best friends is a judge and him and I have had this talk. His response is that each situation is different, but he doesn’t see anyone in his 3 counties getting charged with anything unless they cause some sort of property damage.
 

TheTone

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I’m not aware of anyone being civilly charged in Idaho for trespass since the law was changed, I’m not saying it hasn’t happened but I’m also not aware of it. I think that section was truly added as a scare tactic against would be trespassers and a way for a landowner to “extort” someone they catch, sort of a pay me now or I’ll sue you.

One of the other crummy parts with the Idaho law change was the governor’s reluctance to sign it and saying it was poorly written and needed cleaned up by future sessions which so far has not happened
 

YoungGun

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Don’t forget what the BLM says about corner crossing.

“It is illegal to cross public land at corners. Some areas in the West are “checker-boarded” with public and private lands, or otherwise have sections of public land that are difficult to reach. When the only place tracts of public land touch is at a corner, it may seem like a logical thing to step over the corner from one piece of public land to another. Every year hunters armed with GPS units and maps give it a try. Unfortunately, it is illegal to cross at boundary corners. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/access-tips-hunting-blm-lands
From Colorado... Don't you think if it was explicitly illegal, federally speaking, that Montana and every other state would say so? BLM is not going to say it's "legal" either, otherwise they'd be inserting themselves into the first court case in whichever state a corner crossing case goes beyond the local Justice Court.
 
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Highfastflyer

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I don’t know if ive ever seen someone so afraid of wealthy people. Relax man…if you are so scared of them taking you to court then don’t do it. A lot of these guys are smart and have money for a reason. Not because they blow it on dumb shit that they may or may not win. In Montana it says corner hopping is not recommended. If it was a slam dunk case for someone then it would say illegal. One of my best friends is a judge and him and I have had this talk. His response is that each situation is different, but he doesn’t see anyone in his 3 counties getting charged with anything unless they cause some sort of property damage.
Not worried in the slightest, this is your fallacious assumption. I have nothing to fear as I don’t ever Trespass. Plenty of good public lands which are accessible without worrying about doing something Illegal or a lawsuit.


Don’t forget what the BLM says about corner crossing.

“It is illegal to cross public land at corners. Some areas in the West are “checker-boarded” with public and private lands, or otherwise have sections of public land that are difficult to reach. When the only place tracts of public land touch is at a corner, it may seem like a logical thing to step over the corner from one piece of public land to another. Every year hunters armed with GPS units and maps give it a try. Unfortunately, it is illegal to cross at boundary corners. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/access-tips-hunting-blm-lands
 

Highfastflyer

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From Colorado... Don't you think if it was explicitly illegal, federally speaking, that Montana and every other state would say so? BLM is not going to say it's "legal" either, otherwise they'd be inserting themselves into the first court case in whichever state a corner crossing case goes beyond the local Justice Court.
This is from a Federal Agency so yes this is Federal legal interpretation.
Wyoming BLM also gives the same advice as does the Wyoming State Lands Division.
“Corner crossings in the checkerboard land pattern area or elsewhere are not considered legal”. https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Program_Recreation_BLM WY Access Guide.pdf
 

Hunting Wife

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This is from a Federal Agency so yes this is Federal legal interpretation.
Wyoming BLM also gives the same advice as does the Wyoming State Lands Division.
“Corner crossings in the checkerboard land pattern area or elsewhere are not considered legal”. https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Program_Recreation_BLM WY Access Guide.pdf
But this is not a federal legal matter. It’s a state/county legal matter so what BLM put in their pamphlet is a CYA for BLM. End of story. They operate across multiple jurisdictions so pretty much have to say that. It is not and should not be taken as a “Federal legal interpretation” in the manner you are describing. I can just about guarantee you this statement did not come from some deep legal review by the Solicitor’s office that found corner crossing illegal. They looked at the patchwork of laws and said ”what a cluster$&@!. We’ll just say that it’s illegal to cover our butt.” They have no more clarity on the issue than any of us given the current verbiage and case laws in existence.
 

ElkFever2

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Flying in is specifically authorised in statute so no infringement of private property occurred. Contact the county attorneys office if you want specific trespassing case examples. I represent no ranch other than a small parcel I own and it has legally accessible state lands adjacent via a county road. Why do you insist on infringing upon property rights? I just try to follow what is established and Legal.
So if I flap my arms when I hop the corner I’m good, right? Otherwise the aircraft would be trespassing the private airspace when it was x feet above the private ground flying in to access public land.
 

wllm1313

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So if I flap my arms when I hop the corner I’m good, right? Otherwise the aircraft would be trespassing the private airspace when it was x feet above the private ground flying in to access public land.
400ft is managed by the FAA and is certainly public.

20ft is certainly private as for instance a utility company needs an easement to hang powerlines.

FAA rules get a bit complicated with permitting as well, for instance if you are x miles from an airport (any including private) you need an FAA permit to drill an oil/gas well. Rigs are in the neighborhood of 100ft.

That implies to me that around 100ft falls into the range of public airspace.

Drones have obviously brought this topic to the forefront, regs vary by jurisdiction but many state that you can fly a drone very low.
 

Highfastflyer

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But this is not a federal legal matter. It’s a state/county legal matter so what BLM put in their pamphlet is a CYA for BLM. End of story. They operate across multiple jurisdictions so pretty much have to say that. It is not and should not be taken as a “Federal legal interpretation” in the manner you are describing. I can just about guarantee you this statement did not come from some deep legal review by the Solicitor’s office that found corner crossing illegal. They looked at the patchwork of laws and said ”what a cluster$&@!. We’ll just say that it’s illegal to cover our butt.” They have no more clarity on the issue than any of us given the current verbiage and case laws in existence.
Have fun telling the BLM agent your interpretation. It is not theirs. Call them as I have, corner hopping is Illegal and can be cited.
 

Highfastflyer

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So if I flap my arms when I hop the corner I’m good, right? Otherwise the aircraft would be trespassing the private airspace when it was x feet above the private ground flying in to access public land.
Aircraft are specifically exempt via statute. Flapping your arms across a property line will get them chopped off.
 

Dakotakid

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Have fun telling the BLM agent your interpretation. It is not theirs. Call them as I have, corner hopping is Illegal and can be
Have fun telling the BLM agent your interpretation. It is not theirs. Call them as I have, corner hopping is Illegal and can be cited.
The BLM feds could only cite for a fed violation on BLM land. They may take position that corner hoping is illegal but I don’t see a practical example of how their position could be applied.
The private property trespass is a state issue. Each states law would apply to whether trespass occurred on private property.

As for airspace there is a pretty recent US Supreme Court case that denied faa regulatory of airspace under 500 ft.
 
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