Best Muzzleloader to Buy?- Short Notice

[Bulldog0156]

@Gerald Martin, I know a real good mule deer wintering range where you could blast a buck that thought he made it through hunting season. Might have to wait in line like black Friday though, the locals have been camped out since Monday morning.

 

[MTLabrador]

“Anyone who truly knows me knows I’ve been a huge history buff since elementary school,” he said in a recent interview. “… I really liked learning about the extermination of bison and my hope is that we can kill every last elk in Montana.”

What better way to HONOR the PRIMAL URGES of those who came before us than ELIMINATING all WILD BEASTS from the landscape just like they did?

 

[Gerald Martin]

@Gerald Martin, I know a real good mule deer wintering range where you could blast a buck that thought he made it through hunting season. Might have to wait in line like black Friday though, the locals have been camped out since Monday morning.

Good news is that for this year those bucks are probably still on their summer range.

 

[Sytes]

“Anyone who truly knows me knows I’ve been a huge history buff since elementary school,” he said in a recent interview. “… I really liked learning about the extermination of bison and my hope is that we can kill every last elk in Montana.”

That's a nice play to the select HT crowd who opposes the issue.

I really like the same fundamentals of muzzleloader's history... Johnston has a great series with, Titus Bass as a fictional character traveling through historical events...

I'm not a fan of decimating Bison though if that's how you'd like to portray my interest for the pom pom crowd, more power to you.
It's the typical, attack the politician who introduced a muzzy season, not initially intended for the extended season.

@antlerradar I agree and disagree personally. I believe it should have been left for our commission though...
I'd prefer it the last week pulled from archery vs rifle though that's not what our organization archery board members presented to the legislature.

 

[Gerald Martin]

That's a nice play to the select HT crowd who opposes the issue.

I really like the same fundamentals of muzzleloader's history... Johnston has a great series with, Titus Bass as a fictional character traveling through historical events...

I'm not a fan of decimating Bison though if that's how you'd like to portray my interest for the pom pom crowd, more power to you.
It's the typical, attack the politician who introduced a muzzy season, not initially intended for the extended season.

@antlerradar I agree and disagree personally. I believe it should have been left for our commission though...
I'd prefer it the last week pulled from archery vs rifle though that's not what our organization archery board members presented to the legislature.

Adding muzzleloader season at the end of archery while bulls are still actively bugling would have placed more pressure on elk than a late season does.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

That's a nice play to the select HT crowd who opposes the issue.

I really like the same fundamentals of muzzleloader's history... Johnston has a great series with, Titus Bass as a fictional character traveling through historical events...

I'm not a fan of decimating Bison though if that's how you'd like to portray my interest for the pom pom crowd, more power to you.
It's the typical, attack the politician who introduced a muzzy season, not initially intended for the extended season.

@antlerradar I agree and disagree personally. I believe it should have been left for our commission though...
I'd prefer it the last week pulled from archery vs rifle though that's not what our organization archery board members presented to the legislature.

Yeah...

I grew up reading Gary Paulsen's Mr. Tucket series, I'm about to hunt 2 weeks of muzzy here in Mass, have hunted it in CO numerous times, hunted pronghorn with a muzzy on a rifle tag... oh and hopefully can make a PA flintlock hunt happen.

Which is preamble to say I'm a fan.

Nostalgia is no excuse for flagrantly horrible management policy.

I'm attacking stupidity and shortsightedness.

 

[bigsky2]

That's a nice play to the select HT crowd who opposes the issue.

I really like the same fundamentals of muzzleloader's history... Johnston has a great series with, Titus Bass as a fictional character traveling through historical events...

I'm not a fan of decimating Bison though if that's how you'd like to portray my interest for the pom pom crowd, more power to you.
It's the typical, attack the politician who introduced a muzzy season, not initially intended for the extended season.

@antlerradar I agree and disagree personally. I believe it should have been left for our commission though...
I'd prefer it the last week pulled from archery vs rifle though that's not what our organization archery board members presented to the legislature.

What is your organization?

 

[Sytes]

Nostalgia is no excuse for flagrantly horrible management policy.

I'm attacking stupidity and shortsightedness.

Qualifying any entity in favor of the season for muzzleloaders - "flagrantly horrible management policy" "stupid" and "shortsighted"...

What/who, in your book, are stupid - shortsighted?

Are you opposed to a Montana muzzleloader season? The dates? Those who were in favor?

You've attacked Hinkle for his vision of bringing historic, montana muzzleloader heritage into the modern hunt as a dedicated season. Ok, we disagree.

Reading of HB 242 when BHA was in favor:

(8) There is established a special muzzleloader heritage hunting season that begins on the second Saturday after the end of the regular season and lasts 9 days

Montana Chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers testified in favor of HB 242:
“Montana possesses a rich history of hunters, trappers and explorers" "After the bow, hunters brought muzzle-loading rifles and we support House Bill 242 because it provides and opportunity for those that hunt with heritage muzzleloaders to carry on that tradition during a time that does not interfere with the other big game seasons or method of take.” (Note: This MT BHA Public Statement in favor was later recanted for commission defined dates vs legislation)

@bigsky2 : "Our" - intended in general form as those organizations that, in general, support the common hunter (or should). I was a BHA member from '14-'17. I appreciate many aspects of BHA and others, not so much.

***********

During drafts, this portion (below) was worked, I sure wish this was implemented - Chop a portion of one season or another - as mentioned, my preference - last week of archery.

...end of archery while bulls are still actively bugling

You know your stuff though my experience differs... October 10th - 17th is pretty low on the scale for bugling rut happy bulls.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Qualifying any entity in favor of the season for muzzleloaders - "flagrantly horrible management policy" "stupid" and "shortsighted"...

Qualifying the specific season as it stands, not any entity in the favor of a muzzy season.

What/who, in your book, are stupid - shortsighted?

If I search your handle and "population" about 500 comments pop up about R1 elk. Mostly you seem to attribute the low numbers to wolves, but regardless we both agree they are low.

<Woodpeckers - Mule deer>
Our Mountain States - "Last Best Place" is on the true ESA list.
Been on a slow decent turned mashed accelerator pedal straight to hell! COVID itself indirectly brought every Tom, Dick, and Harriet from every noted "escape State" to Montana, Idaho, Colorado and catching up, Wyoming.
https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/extinct.309395/post-3269012
Sad for the woodpecker, mulies joining elk, and last of the meaning behind Mountain States...

-Sytes

I could quote a bunch more posts, but we both seem to agree massive growth is happening in MT, rockies in general, and it's effecting the herds. (I picked that comment, because i think it's spot on)

Mule deer harvests are down 15% since 04' (Up for NR, down 25% for residents, who presumably have a bit more restraint and don't wack as many forkies). There are about a 1000 threads on MT mule deer I don't think saying the mule deer herd is hurting is controversial.

So given that, don't you think your positions on herd health are incongruous with supporting additional harvest? Honestly given your posts, I don't understand why you're in favor of the season.

Are you opposed to a Montana muzzleloader season? The dates? Those who were in favor?

In a general sense, not at all. I think all western states need to look at their data, institute mandatory reporting so they have better data, and chart a new course for managing wildlife, given the huge population changes they are seeing.

I think CO and WY are examples of different management strategies and goals. WY's goal is quality and I think they are doing a decent job of getting there. CO's goal is participation and I think to that end they have figured out how to get a ton of people in the field without tanking the herd. Though in both those states there are problems and some re-tooling needed. Point being there is no one-size-fits-all approach and I'm not going to say that MT should adopt either system, MT needs a MT goal and strategy.

But to answer directly, I think the biggest hurdle is the coupled mule deer and elk seasons, given the different life cycles of the species. Due to those realities, my preference would be to make the general rifle season 2 weeks (16 days) and make the second 2 weeks muzzy season. So for 2021, Oct 23-Nov 7th Rifle and then Nov 13-Nov 28 Muzzy. MT seems to favor general seasons, no draws, and your tag being good until you get one, so give that cultural preference a date shift seems the easiest course of action.


TLDR: My entire issue is not putting herd health first, you want muzzy fine, but given herd issues you need to replace a current season not add it on top.

@Sytes honestly would love to do a muzzy hunt with you at some point, I enjoy your posts on a variety of topics. I'm being cranky about herds and herds alone. I apologize if my comments seemed like a personal attack, that was not my intention.

 

[antlerradar]

Mule deer harvests are down 15% since 04' (Up for NR, down 25% for residents, who presumably have a bit more restraint and don't wack as many forkies). There are about a 1000 threads on MT mule deer I don't think saying the mule deer herd is hurting is controversial.

I think that residents having more restraint is part of the reason, but maybe a small part.
Since 04 Montana has had a big jump in the price of the NR deer tag and this has shifted the demographics of the NR hunter towards the more affluent. These more affluent hunters are more likely to spend the extra money and hunt private or if they hunt public they can afford to spend more time hunting. Both of these would greatly improve success. At the same time as more private land locked up by people willing to pay, resident hunter have to rely on hunting Public more and more, reducing a residents chance of success.

 

[Sytes]

What/who, in your book, are stupid - shortsighted?

@wllm1313 : If I search your handle and "population" about 500 comments pop up about R1 elk. Mostly you seem to attribute the low numbers to wolves, but regardless we both agree they are low.

. I apologize if my comments seemed like a personal attack, that was not my intention.

I didn't take your comments as personal until the portion quoted above though that's your prerogative.

I'm not concerned over personal attacks though you've also mis-characterized content related to R1 and wolves.

The topics you've opted to share in a broad brushstroke mis the topic of this thread thus the brush off of the frequent statements such as - wolves among other issues such as extended seasons, need for R1 limited elk tags, population "free for all" w/ general tags, every mountain state apex predator is present in R1, ridiculous quota for wolves due to eco- extremists for districts bordering National Parks etc, etc, etc.

These "other aspects" are frequent disclaimers that must be placed otherwise select hunt talk members love to throw such brushstrokes claims.

That said, taking into context comments related to the traditional muzzleloader season, your intent to show my position for R1 related to crappy elk populations, --- there is no need to extend the season 9 additional days, rather remove the last 7 days from archery or rifle.

All said, it *is based on the commission for creation of opportunities for this traditional method, per the legislation of hb 242. Seems MT is hellbent on keeping this as open to all for any open general tag.
The same commission most of us prefer to keep out of legislative hands and in the commission's purview. Shitty setting though supposedly the commission is the better of two evils.

You've side stepped, in classic internet forum style, the content of my post to focus on an extremely broad overview of my take on R1. General HT members clasp onto a post w/o general understanding covered by your brushstroke overview that presents a false picture.

If the commission does their job, we'd have my awesome resolution to fix all Montana's elk, muley, whitetail, predator, and varmint issue!

Until then, my wife's inquired why I'm up at this time of morning (swing shift schedule). I've informed her the following - adjust for early morning, fat finger phone typing:

Cheers wllm. Apparently we agree to... disagree. I'd take you up on a traditional muzzy season, backcountry wilderness hunt and laugh over this thread around a fire any day.
Edit added: pulling sleds, of course.

 

[Gerald Martin]

My guess is that if the new muzzleloader season was accompanied by reductions in rifle season length, no one on HT would care that black powder guys have their own season. If the season structure that @Sytes outlined was part of the package, I would enthusiastically support an additional muzzleloader season.
However, a restructured season was never part of the proposal, so that’s pretty much a moot point when it comes to gauging support for the traditional muzzleloader guys.

I actually hunted a lot with a traditional muzzleloader when I lived back east and enjoyed it tremendously.

My heartburn over muzzleloader season is that how it was implemented is indicative of the overall attitude surrounding wildlife management in MT. A special interest group with a myopic vision of “getting their advantage” adds even more pressure to an already stressed resource and calls it “opportunity.”

The unwashed masses rejoice and rush to buy a new tool to take advantage of “opportunity” without understanding the legal limitations, ethical limitations of what it takes to be responsibly lethal, and without consideration of the needs of wildlife going into winter.

Next legislative session there will be amendments proposed to this season to “simplify misunderstandings and accommodate those who are inconvenienced by the technological restrictions imposed by ‘traditional limitations’.”

Modern muzzleloaders and scopes are the next logical step. In reality, it won’t really matter because the issue isn’t the tools. The issue is that the “tools” who implement wildlife management policy don’t know about or care about wildlife management, except for how they can exploit the resource.

 

[BrentD]

Cheers wllm. Apparently we agree to... disagree. I'd take you up on a traditional muzzy season, backcountry wilderness hunt and laugh over this thread around a fire any day.
Edit added: pulling sleds, of course.

Well, how do I get in on this? I wanna tag along.

 

[Gulf of America]

.58 cal. 530 grain, and it will out penetrate Barry White. Has the trajectory of a fast pitch softball. Eats powder like an ultra mag. and most likely won't get fired this season. But it is going for a walk, or 5. Don't worry, I will feel guilty the whole time.
View attachment 203931

Could be wrong, but in MT aren't those projectiles not allowed for muzzy season because of the gas checks?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Could be wrong, but in MT aren't those projectiles not allowed for muzzy season because of the gas checks?

Those projectiles are MT legal.

 

[MThuntr]

Could be wrong, but in MT aren't those projectiles not allowed for muzzy season because of the gas checks?

I don't see gas checks...hollow base helps expand that skirt to the rifling. The ridges are like drive bands you see on copper bullets makes it easier for them to load and shoot.

 

[MThuntr]

I'll admit...If it snows my 54cal Hawken (90gr of FFg Black Powder under a .530 round ball using musket caps) is going for a walk or 2 with intentions of shooting a whitetail doe. I have no interest in bothering elk any more than they already are.

 

[Gulf of America]

Gotcha my bad! I'm not a reloader and know a lot less about bullets than I should - thought the ridges were gas checks. Unfortunately my ignorance is likely pretty widespread amongst people hitting the field with smokepoles in a week.

 

[BenInMT]

.58 cal. 530 grain, and it will out penetrate Barry White. Has the trajectory of a fast pitch softball. Eats powder like an ultra mag. and most likely won't get fired this season. But it is going for a walk, or 5. Don't worry, I will feel guilty the whole time.
View attachment 203930View attachment 203931

Is that built from a kit?

 

[Bluffgruff]

Serious question, are the "northwest" CVA inlines with the holes in the breech plug legal for the late season?