And the Hits just keep on coming....WY now.

JLS

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All I can do is compare NR hunting prices in the 1970's to what they are now in regard to US median household income.

I'll concede that a NR license in Montana has increased by 1/10th of one percent of US mean household income.

You win if you also concede it was a rich mans game and out of reach for NR commoner average hunters even in the late 70's.
All of this neglects what cost of living expenses have done, as discretionary spending is really what matters.

I’m speaking from my own experience, nothing more and nothing less. I’m not trying to win anything here.

Again, I am sorry you think this is hot air. From your drivers seat it might very well be. From mine it’s not.
 
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Thomas11

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I agree that alot of CO hunts would be an upgrade for now but how much longer? With the season date changes, they are about to give an absolute whooping on mature deer over the next 2 years. Also, Wyoming allows you to archery hunt for 30 days and then go back with a rifle. Similar to Montana but half the price for overall the same if not better quality experience/bucks. Most CO hunts besides archery are week long seasons. I fully expect CO to raise prices within a few years as well. I hear you Thomas11 it sucks, but I can't blame a state for trying to get up to the times with the surrounding states.
Well I think w these new prices they have passed by most states in the pricing. I do get what you are saying about allowing to hunt the whole season etc but for most NR this isn’t practical to come back multiple times. Yea hopefully I draw my CO deer tag this yr before the slaughter! That’s another dumb decision on CPW department but that’s another topic all together
 

brocksw

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All I can do is compare NR hunting prices in the 1970's to what they are now in regard to US median household income.

I'll concede that a NR license in Montana has increased by 1/10th of one percent of US mean household income.

You win if you also concede it was a rich mans game and out of reach for NR commoner average hunters even in the late 70's.
Well that's only part of the equation though isn't it? You could go down to the c store and buy a rifle for 100 bucks, a sandwich for 25 cents, and fill gas for damn near nothing back then. Shit, you could buy a home for 40 grand and pay for it and the new car on one income while your wife was home watching the kids (no day care costs). Things have changed.

I think that's what JLS is saying....and what I've said in a different thread. There's more to this than the price of the tag. There's much more nuance than that. But the price of the tag is still completely relevant to the discussion and factored into the big picture for the average joe.

You don't have any say in the price of your flavor of pickup, Ford isn't a public resource. IF somebody wants to build a million dollar car they're free to do so. They're not worried about sustainability...their industry is the opposite of hunting, participation and advocacy means almost nothing. It's all about money, it's profit driven.

Elk/Deer/Antelope/etc..they're a public resource and access/price or whatever severely limits attainability for them....it changes everything. Because with them and access to them goes the entire industry. Turn them into a million dollar car and all the sudden the entire landscape looks different.
 
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Thomas11

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If they are over-priced then don't buy one. If others believe they are overpriced then they will do the same and the market will give the pricing feedback to WY. It is that simple.

The question should not be whether the price should be $600, $800, or $2,000. In my view, the question is, should states monetize wildlife at prices inaccessible to the average person to fund whole departments? To that, the answer is either Yes or No, not, whether or not I like the price.
I say no to your question that they shouldn’t be inaccessible to the average person. Just because they can get $1100 because there are enough ppl that will pay doesn’t make it right to do so.
 

BuzzH

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All of this neglects what cost of living expenses have done, as discretionary spending is really what matters.

I’m speaking from my own experience, nothing more and nothing less. I’m not trying to win anything here.
Discretionary spending is just that...and if you can quantify how that's changed and compare it to the commoner average NR hunter being priced out now compared to the 1970's, do it...I'll look at the facts.

As to cost of living, I can make a pretty good case that discretionary spending has declined due to many living well beyond their basic "cost of living expenses", and what they have chosen to define as their "cost of living expenses"...guilty as charged at times myself. You know, basic living expense of cell phones that cost a grand, as a basic example.

My choices on discretionary income and definition of "cost of living" are not going to find me whimpering about NR license fees...
 

JLS

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I’m not speaking to anyone else’s spending habits. I have no desire to pull up all of our finances over 25 years to get you to see something outside of your world view. I’m done here.
 

brocksw

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Discretionary spending is just that...and if you can quantify how that's changed and compare it to the commoner average NR hunter being priced out now compared to the 1970's, do it...I'll look at the facts.

As to cost of living, I can make a pretty good case that discretionary spending has declined due to many living well beyond their basic "cost of living expenses", and what they have chosen to define as their "cost of living expenses"...guilty as charged at times myself. You know, basic living expense of cell phones that cost a grand, as a basic example.

My choices on discretionary income and definition of "cost of living" are not going to find me whimpering about NR license fees...
You ain't lying there. People living beyond their means is the epidemic no one wants to talk about.
 

Edwin

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Feb 21, 2019
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PP purchases generated 16.5 million in revenue for WY in 2020. Not license sales, point sales. When half of LQ permits go away I would think many will jump out of the point sham. The increase license cost is there to cover the loss in revenue from the point jumpers
 

BuzzH

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I’m not speaking to anyone else’s spending habits. I have no desire to pull up all of our finances over 25 years to get you to see something outside of your world view. I’m done here.
I didn't ask for anyone spending habits or personal finances.

But, if you believe that a household earning 16K a year in 1979 didn't have to make choices, sacrifice other discretionary income to afford a $225 NR Montana elk/deer tag...and now its a burden to expect a household making 68K a year in 2021 to have to do the same exact thing for a $1k NR deer/elk combo and 1/10th of 1 percent increase is the straw that broke the camels back...yeah, I'm done here as well.
 

Buschy

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Holy smokes! A lot of frustrated people the last few days.

I am a NR and I can't blame WY for wanting to move from 20% to 10% one single bit! As stated earlier, it is the "industry standard". Wouldn't you want to see this change if you lived in WY? I sure would! I was born and raised in ND and I always thought they were one of, if not the most, selfish states in the nation when it came to NR tag allocations (deer and moose in particular).

Further, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who applies to WY or buys PPs there. I have been in the PP and BP game in most every state in the nation that offers the option, and decent hunts, for the last 25 years. One thing I have learned during that time is the rules are ALWAYS changing and the goalposts are ALWAYS being moved on NRs. I used to get upset, until I accepted this is HOW the game is played, like it or not.

Instead of bitching, I did couple of things. First, I moved from ND to Alaska, and then Colorado, to be a resident in those states and take advantage of the hunting opportunities they offer residents. Anyone else can do the same thing. Move to WY and you would likely have a whole different perspective of this proposed legislation. Second, I researched OTC, leftover tags and 0-1 point hunts across the West, to the point of exhaustion, and thought "outside of the box". There are more hunting opportunities than anyone can take advantage of in a season, if you really want to hunt and work hard. Finally, I love to hunt! If it means I have to get a part-time job to cover increased tag costs, so be it. Life is short and I am going to hunt!

Disclaimer: My family and I are neck deep in points across the board in WY. We have been slowly getting out of the PP game there, as this has been on the horizon for some time. If it passes, it will impact us as much as anyone on Hunt Talk. I can't see the sense in bitching at Buzz and others who have helped more Hunt Talkers than anyone I know of.
 

BuzzH

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Buzz gets in this mode and comes across is the type of guy that would stab you in the eye with his fork in the chow line over the last slice of pie.

I say that somewhat affectionately, lol
No way, I need the fork to eat that last slice of pie with...and have no idea where exactly your eye has been.

Oh, and I'm happy with a 90-10 split on that last slice as well.
 
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get-n-birdy

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Don't know Buzz, but have an 87 year old dad that's 100% stubborn Swede and has the nickname Ornery, so use to the full frontal brutal honesty. I don’t think he's wrong, it's more about tone. My wife and daughter-in-law get after their husband's a lot for tone. My son always tells his wife, you can have tone or content, not both.

Funding wildlife is farking expensive, period.

The cost of a tag sucks, but the fact is I highly doubt any states hunting or fishing license fees have kept up with inflation even sorta kinda since the need for a license or duck stamp years ago, resident or non resident. So the cost is relative to what we are use too.

The demand vs the supply sucks, and hunting out west is in high demand but there's still opportunities. There's zero doubt in my mind if all out west states got together and raised a nr bull elk tag to $2,000 across the board, within 3 years nobody would bat an eye at it that was still in the game, and the demand would still outweigh supply. My concern is more long term and there's so many unknown variables it's hard to do anything other than speculate possible outcomes. It's challenging to be a nr and realize getting to elk hunt every year you will have to broaden your horizons and be way more flexible to be able to do it every year or every other year. You'll have to be able to use every weapon type and or be willing to hunt cow only tags, take advantage of odd ball opportunities in all the states verses just hunting one or two possible states every year.

Everyone who own a house, land, vehicles or equipment knows how expensive ch!t is to maintain. The cost of maintaining the existing habitat is expensive. The cost of acquiring more habitat and creating better habitat on it is absolutely astronomically expensive.
 

mulecreek

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Rock Springs, WY
Regarding Cost of Living. Analyze this data to whatever fits your narrative the best.

What did tags cost 40 years ago? Special didn't exist in 1980.

Actual 1980 $/Inflated to Todays $
Deer $100/$317
Ant $100/$317
Elk $250/$794
Moose $300/$952
Sheep $400/$1270

First year of Special Pricing 1989

Actual 1989 $/Inflated to todays $
Special Deer $200/$422
Special Ant $200/$422
Special Elk $450/$949

Lets try just the last 15 years since that is around when interest in out-of-state hunting started to grow.

Actual 2004 $/Inflated to todays $/Actual Current $/Proposed in SF103 for 2022 $
Deer $260/$360/$374/$655
Ant $225/$311/$326/$600
Elk $480/$665/$692/$1100
Special Deer $460/$637/$662/$655
Special Ant $425/$588/$614/$600
Special Elk $880/$1219/$1268/$1100
Moose $1200/$1662/$1982/$2750
Sheep $1900/$2631/$2320/$3000

Lots of new tags, stamps, PP fees to go along with this but I did not dump those in.
 

brocksw

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One thing I have learned during that time is the rules are ALWAYS changing and the goalposts are ALWAYS being moved on NRs. I used to get upset, until I accepted this is HOW the game is played, like it or not.

Instead of bitching, I did couple of things. First, I moved from ND to Alaska, and then Colorado, to be a resident in those states and take advantage of the hunting opportunities they offer residents. Anyone else can do the same thing. Move to WY and you would likely have a whole different perspective of this proposed legislation.
Except Cody Wyoming is the next Bozangeles and I'm hearing all sorts of Montanan's complaining about all the "outsiders" coming in and now residents can't draw tags that they drew every year.

I could be wrong, but the answer to keeping our hunting traditions alive for our kids and their kids, doesn't seem to be "everyone move to Wyoming and stop your bitching".

Again, I could be wrong. Just some thoughts....
 

WapitiBob

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Don't know Buzz, but have an 87 year old dad that's 100% stubborn Swede and has the nickname Ornery, so use to the full frontal brutal honesty. I don’t think he's wrong, it's more about tone. My wife and daughter-in-law get after their husband's a lot for tone. My son always tells his wife, you can have tone or content, not both.

..

Thirty pages here and on rokslide of nr complaining because WY wants parity, It's easy to see why he has the tone.
 

Four22

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Ohio
I wish people would rally around this subject in states like mine where anyone can walk in and buy a tag and go hunt.

Ohio doesn’t have near the game on public land as the western states which is part of why I travel out west to hunt.

that being said, I keep seeing “opportunity for residents”. Come on out to Ohio. For less than $300 you can go hunt as much as you want on our limited public land. You’ll see a big reason why some travel to hunt out west.

plus Ohio doesn’t have antelope, mule deer or elk last time I checked 😁
 

brocksw

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Thirty pages here and on rokslide of nr complaining because WY wants parity, It's easy to see why he has the tone.
We should certainly do a better job being empathetic with Buzz. He's a great resource and great guy to have in the game.

It's been a rough year for sportsmen....everyone is just on edge...the attacks are coming in on all fronts.
 

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