Preferred Pronouns

[BucksnDucks]

I have seen behavior expectations requiring the respecting of known/communicated pronouns, but never one that requires some canned introductory query of a stranger. I have seen all kinds of businesses have mandatory phrases/actions for use with customers "do you want fries with that", "next meal free if we don't ask if you want a receipt", that stupid tip the Blizzard upside down thing at DQ, but never on such a sensitive topic. It seems unworkable and while it maybe someone's aspiration, hard to see it actually rolled out with teeth -- but who knows.

Unworkable is why I think it has not rolled out. Although I believe multiple folks in charge have very woke aspirations.
After 200 plus replies a lot gets lost in the weeds. I do want to clarify for anyone interested. The original post and "pronoun game" refer to compelled language to all. It is not about referring to an individual by a certain name or pronoun. It's specifically about being compelled to state your pronouns and ask others for his or hers or theirs or zers or zims.

 

[Nick87]

I don't really care what anybody wants to be called. I try to avoid people in general at all costs so I'm not too worried about it. If we could keep it out of school until adulthood I think that'd be good.

 

[schmalts]

My first wife got this legit diagnosis - it really sucks being around these folks. I have LGTBQ friends and there is no comparison.

Why must we come up with complicated diagnosis outside our field of expertise to "put in their place" people we don't even know and in no way effect our life. Isn't, they were made differently than me, and that difference makes their life much more difficult for them than mine is for me, a much simpler explana

Don't know, don't care, I'm not a gender/pronoun warden.

Further, I don't think any regulation, law, or rule is being broken even if I were.

Well there come the sticky part. Regs, Rules, Laws. The whole Dude on the woman's swim team thing is causing a stir and the majority of the population agree that DUDE should not be swimming against women in woman's sports.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Well there come the sticky part. Regs, Rules, Laws. The whole Dude on the woman's swim team thing is causing a stir and the majority of the population agree that DUDE should not be swimming against women in woman's sports.

You raise an under appreciated concern about the effects of "gender is a fiction" on women - who are just beginning to realize full liberty and participation in our society. To call them "birthing persons", to undercut the value of Title IX - all legitimate concerns. Unfortunately, too often they seem to be often raised by folks who are anti-LGTBQ for other reasons as insincere weapons. But sadly this is at the crux of so much of our mess - a lack of sincere debate and dialog. (not saying your comments are not sincere - just speaking to the broader internet/political echo chamber)

 

[BuzzH]

Well there come the sticky part. Regs, Rules, Laws. The whole Dude on the woman's swim team thing is causing a stir and the majority of the population agree that DUDE should not be swimming against women in woman's sports.

What majority is that?

 

[VikingsGuy]

What majority is that?

I can't speak to polling numbers, but to be fair, there are a number of very liberal feminists of note that have voiced some reasonable concerns. Without question I support the basic human dignity of referring to the labels of their choosing. How that plays into other areas of policy is an open question to many - even those who do not reject the community as somehow abhorrent.

That is one problem with the religious reaction - it shuts off a more careful discussion of what is actually fair in a diverse society - it certainly shouldn't be beating those that are different or denying them housing or employment, but it also shouldn't be letting 1% dominate girls sports or calling into question the importance of motherhood (or fatherhood). We have to be able to have a more nuanced view of life than these extremes.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Unworkable is why I think it has not rolled out. Although I believe multiple folks in charge have very woke aspirations.
After 200 plus replies a lot gets lost in the weeds. I do want to clarify for anyone interested. The original post and "pronoun game" refer to compelled language to all. It is not about referring to an individual by a certain name or pronoun. It's specifically about being compelled to state your pronouns and ask others for his or hers or theirs or zers or zims.

"After 200 plus replies a lot gets lost in the weeds." Welcome to the forum

I actually meant to respond to that, I think @Nameless Range made a good point. Personally I see this as an awkward transition phase, language and interactions/culture are organic this kinda thing is so stilted.

IMHO it makes people frustrated because it's not the normal cadence flow that we are all use to...

Adding to Nameless's prognostication I think Gen Z and Alpha will/have figured out a more natural discourse and we will all be mocked for being old fogies in much the same way that we tease the grey hairs now.

HR policies are always pretty ham-fisted in my experience.

 

[schmalts]

What majority is that?

Google it, that majority is pretty much every poll as of late. Let's be real, the word "trans" means transform. So in most cases when someone is "transitioning" isn't it admission they are one sex trying to be another? That involves surgery and hormones, if they were really that sex in the first place they would not need that. This isn't your lame animal biology thing you brought up, True hermaphroditic humans do not exist, but pseudohermaphrodism does, where an individual has both male and female external genital organs, sometimes at the same time. Female embryos exposed to high levels of androgens (the male hormones) develop female internal reproductive organs but male external genitalia. These cases are very rare.
I don't accept transgender for the sex that they wish they want to be. Example, Bruce Jenner will never be a woman in my mind nor will I accept him as one. He is either a man (man enough to win the Olympics), or a transgender, but not a woman. Therefore he should not be allowed to participate in women sports against women, no more than I should not be able to apply for a Wyoming resident sheep tag even though I visited Wyoming, and it felt to much like I should have lived there my whole life and wasted my life living in Wisconsin because it really felt like Wyoming was the place I should have spent most of my life after I saw what it was like. I will address Bruce as Kaitlan if he decides that is what he wants to be called because it is just a name, names are not something you are born with, they are given to you and for centuries people change names after getting married or other reason, but changing your name is not changing your sex. However pronouns are commonly used to address ones gender. I won't treat someone mean, or harm them, I just refuse to be brainwashed into thinking that someone can change their sex. Any more questions?

 

[Gerald Martin]

There is no doubt you are a good and sincere man - one I would be happy to share a campfire with. If I limit my thoughts to your words alone I give your note a fulsome, "Amen". But it would be insincere of me to leave it at that, as my guess is you and I would differ in our understanding of the meets and bounds of "God's truth" and how that "defines who we are and how we should live".

I just don't see the Word giving me that much personal power and wisdom. My thinking and understanding too can be broken - and I am not willing to "hate the sin, love the sinner" on topics that the Word touches on so briefly when compared to topics like love, kindness, humility, etc. Humility begins with accepting we cannot know all of God's intentions - and certainly not His intentions for others. "Above all else LOVE", commands us to place this first - hate the sin, love the sinner on such personal matters just doesn't seem to meet the standard in my eyes.

I respect your authenticity and thoughtfulness, so hopefully we can respectfully agree to disagree. Go in peace & serve.

I appreciate the dialogue.

My main point I have been attempting to make is not really even about sexuality. I am attempting to show that truth and reality are not subjective in nature and able to be changed to fit the beliefs of an individual.

If we affirm that a man is a woman and a woman is a man just because they believe themselves to be so, why can’t a human be a tree or anything else they choose to identify as?

I am not trying to make light of the very real struggle and conflict that people have with their identity. I just do not see how affirming illogical definitions is loving or helpful to an individual just because they express a desire to be known as such.

Especially so when the current activist trend of boutique gender choice is promoted to pre-pubescent children by their parents or adults who are influential in the lives of impressionable children.


There are genuinely difficult and complex discussions that need to take place around this issue. Discussions that address the rate of suicide and depression among trans and LGBQ individuals. Discussions that address the shameful and hurtful ways that individuals have acted against members who identify as part of that community.

Many of those same discussions need to include how other individuals experience bullying, intimidation, violence or derogatory comments because their beliefs about reality don’t align with someone else’s.

I have a feeling that if we could actually have these hard conversations in a respectful manner there would be much less conflict between people who are very much alike in most areas and radically different in other areas.

 

[schmalts]

I appreciate the dialogue.

My main point I have been attempting to make is not really even about sexuality. I am attempting to show that truth and reality are not subjective in nature and able to be changed to fit the beliefs of an individual.

If we affirm that a man is a woman and a woman is a man just because they believe themselves to be so, why can’t a human be a tree or anything else they choose to identify as?

I am not trying to make light of the very real struggle and conflict that people have with their identity. I just do not see how affirming illogical definitions is loving or helpful to an individual just because they express a desire to be known as such.

Especially so when the current activist trend of boutique gender choice is promoted to pre-pubescent children by their parents or adults who are influential in the lives of impressionable children.


There are genuinely difficult and complex discussions that need to take place around this issue. Discussions that address the rate of suicide and depression among trans and LGBQ individuals. Discussions that address the shameful and hurtful ways that individuals have acted against members who identify as part of that community.

Many of those same discussions need to include how other individuals experience bullying, intimidation, violence or derogatory comments because their beliefs about reality don’t align with someone else’s.

I have a feeling that if we could actually have these hard conversations in a respectful manner there would be much less conflict between people who are very much alike in most areas and radically different in other areas.

I appreciate the dialogue.

My main point I have been attempting to make is not really even about sexuality. I am attempting to show that truth and reality are not subjective in nature and able to be changed to fit the beliefs of an individual.

If we affirm that a man is a woman and a woman is a man just because they believe themselves to be so, why can’t a human be a tree or anything else they choose to identify as?

I am not trying to make light of the very real struggle and conflict that people have with their identity. I just do not see how affirming illogical definitions is loving or helpful to an individual just because they express a desire to be known as such.

Especially so when the current activist trend of boutique gender choice is promoted to pre-pubescent children by their parents or adults who are influential in the lives of impressionable children.


There are genuinely difficult and complex discussions that need to take place around this issue. Discussions that address the rate of suicide and depression among trans and LGBQ individuals. Discussions that address the shameful and hurtful ways that individuals have acted against members who identify as part of that community.

Many of those same discussions need to include how other individuals experience bullying, intimidation, violence or derogatory comments because their beliefs about reality don’t align with someone else’s.

I have a feeling that if we could actually have these hard conversations in a respectful manner there would be much less conflict between people who are very much alike in most areas and radically different in other areas.

Yeah, what he said..

 

[okie archer]

What majority is that?

For sure the crowd at the swimming race as the majority was silent and the crowd cheered for the second place Emma Weyant. Also the majority at the award ceremony of said race. I think Lea Thomas was like 447th in men's races but now he could smash all kinds of women's races.
Let's see I believe several of the feminist movement frown on it as well as Katlin Jenner.
As well as the majority of folks who care about women's sports.
Not to mention the majority of people with common sense that realize the absurdity.
The wokeness of the woke has got themselves in a corner on what should be a common sense issue.

 

[BucksnDucks]

What majority is that?

Probably the one's with the understanding that women's/girl's leagues are there for a reason. The reason is to allow girls and women a fair playing field to participate. There are very few exceptions to the fact post puberty male athletes dominate sports involving strength and speed.
Most people, the majority understand this simple fact.
Going off topic, but I would argue this one without waiver.

 

[Scott85]

Google it, that majority is pretty much every poll as of late. Let's be real, the word "trans" means transform. So in most cases when someone is "transitioning" isn't it admission they are one sex trying to be another? That involves surgery and hormones, if they were really that sex in the first place they would not need that. This isn't your lame animal biology thing you brought up, True hermaphroditic humans do not exist, but pseudohermaphrodism does, where an individual has both male and female external genital organs, sometimes at the same time. Female embryos exposed to high levels of androgens (the male hormones) develop female internal reproductive organs but male external genitalia. These cases are very rare.
I don't accept transgender for the sex that they wish they want to be. Example, Bruce Jenner will never be a woman in my mind nor will I accept him as one. He is either a man (man enough to win the Olympics), or a transgender, but not a woman. Therefore he should not be allowed to participate in women sports against women, no more than I should not be able to apply for a Wyoming resident sheep tag even though I visited Wyoming, and it felt to much like I should have lived there my whole life and wasted my life living in Wisconsin because it really felt like Wyoming was the place I should have spent most of my life after I saw what it was like. I will address Bruce as Kaitlan if he decides that is what he wants to be called because it is just a name, names are not something you are born with, they are given to you and for centuries people change names after getting married or other reason, but changing your name is not changing your sex. However pronouns are commonly used to address ones gender. I won't treat someone mean, or harm them, I just refuse to be brainwashed into thinking that someone can change their sex. Any more questions?

It’s funny you bring up sports and bring up Caitlyn Jenner, she is very outspoken about the issue. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/20/caitlyn-jenner-transgender-athletes-womens-sports/

 

[PaulRevere]

Sometimes I just wanna say..."your asshole is showing".

 

[BuzzH]

Google it, that majority is pretty much every poll as of late. Let's be real, the word "trans" means transform. So in most cases when someone is "transitioning" isn't it admission they are one sex trying to be another? That involves surgery and hormones, if they were really that sex in the first place they would not need that. This isn't your lame animal biology thing you brought up, True hermaphroditic humans do not exist, but pseudohermaphrodism does, where an individual has both male and female external genital organs, sometimes at the same time. Female embryos exposed to high levels of androgens (the male hormones) develop female internal reproductive organs but male external genitalia. These cases are very rare.
I don't accept transgender for the sex that they wish they want to be. Example, Bruce Jenner will never be a woman in my mind nor will I accept him as one. He is either a man (man enough to win the Olympics), or a transgender, but not a woman. Therefore he should not be allowed to participate in women sports against women, no more than I should not be able to apply for a Wyoming resident sheep tag even though I visited Wyoming, and it felt to much like I should have lived there my whole life and wasted my life living in Wisconsin because it really felt like Wyoming was the place I should have spent most of my life after I saw what it was like. I will address Bruce as Kaitlan if he decides that is what he wants to be called because it is just a name, names are not something you are born with, they are given to you and for centuries people change names after getting married or other reason, but changing your name is not changing your sex. However pronouns are commonly used to address ones gender. I won't treat someone mean, or harm them, I just refuse to be brainwashed into thinking that someone can change their sex. Any more questions?

You seem to use google enough for both of us...

Ever heard of plagiarism? It is a real thing.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Sometimes I just wanna say..."your asshole is showing".

Thanks Paul and everyone for a pretty civilized thread. I'm bowing out, this is a fitting comment to end on.

 

[3855WIN]

Heidi got frustrated with my wife and her friend calling Heidi “he”. They both work in liberal workplaces, but didn’t realize that 6’2” with an Adam’s apple was identifying as she/her. I picked up on it fairly quick and didn’t make the mistake they did.
We went from basically accepting gay people in society to being overwhelmed with a variety of identities. Strange times we live in.

 

[El Jason]

Holy chit ...
This shows there's no energy crisis, people got plenty to waste.
I was hoping the inflation issue
would have people over the woke pronoun issue.
I'd like to say more but it's time for the tp tissue
.

Welcome to Hunt Talk.

 

[Wildabeest]

I’m going with “it”…

 

[gouch]

I know a person who was born a girl. When she matured, she realized that she was sexually attracted to girls and not boys. She Identified herself as a homosexual woman. She met a divorced woman who had been married to a man for 10 years but felt she had been living a lie because she also identified as a homosexual woman. They eventually got married. My Christian friends would have me believe that God does not like this homosexual marriage. The first woman then realized that she was not a homosexual woman at all but rather a heterosexual man that just happened to have a woman's body. (I might challenge the assertion that her body was indeed that of a woman, but I do believe she did have lady parts.) He then went through the procedure to transform his body to match his reality. The couple is still married but now their marriage is no longer a homosexual marriage but is now a heterosexual marriage. I do not know if the woman in the marriage once again feels she is living a lie, but I presume that God is now happy.