Preferred Pronouns

[Dougfirtree]

No one has to answer to God for who they are born to be. Everyone has to answer to God for the choices we make.

Proclivities, genetics, family environments, cultural expectations, self belief about our identity all influence the choices we make and whether we choose to operate in harmony with God’s design for humanity.

I didn’t choose to be born a heterosexual white male. Certain aspects of my identity have been defined and given to me independently of how I feel about myself.

But I definitely choose how I behave and the choices I make as I interact with people and the natural world. I also experience the consequences of those choices both good and bad.

Gender dysphoria, intersex, and genetic anomalies of all types are a reality in this broken world. Individuals with those genetic or chromosomal characteristics bear no condemnation because of the characteristics they were given in life. But they like everyone else bear responsibility to God for the choices they make.


There is a basic question that precedes much of the discussion around this issue.

Are reality and truth objective or can an individual change reality and truth by their belief of what reality and truth are?

I have a feeling your sense of reality and truth is fairly clear and I respect that, but I don't think your question is a helpful one when there is not agreement on what reality and truth are. I'm already feeling bad for this hypothetical person you mention who has gender dysphoria, or is intersex, etc who has "choices" to make. I suspect those are pretty tough "choices."

 

[Gerald Martin]

I have a feeling your sense of reality and truth is fairly clear and I respect that, but I don't think your question is a helpful one when there is not agreement on what reality and truth are. I'm already feeling bad for this hypothetical person you mention who has gender dysphoria, or is intersex, etc who has "choices" to make. I suspect those are pretty tough "choices."

Are they any tougher than the choices you have to make? Doesn’t everyone face tough choices in life around areas of sexuality, appropriate behavior and interaction with others?

 

[jlmatthew]

Wonder who’s gonna shoot a big bull with a cow tag and tell the game warden it identifies as a cow? I would love to be on the jury for that one. I’d play along

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Wonder who’s gonna shoot a big bull with a cow tag and tell the game warden it identifies as a cow? I would love to be on the jury for that one. I’d play along

Except tags are typically classified as antlered or antlerless animals.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Are they any tougher than the choices you have to make? Doesn’t everyone face tough choices in life around areas of sexuality, appropriate behavior and interaction with others?

Like @willm, I see you as a heck of a good guy, but if we are honest, there is a fairly big distinction between choosing to avoid adultery and choosing to remain alone and single for a lifetime all while living what you believe in your heart to be a lie. Given how much the Word tells us about love, charity, humility and kindness - and how often we get even that wrong - I suggest we Christians focus our attention a bit and worry less about consensual bedroom behavior. But of course once we have mastered the core teachings of Christ we can revist the hundreds of other biblical prohibitions we wish to tackle - but my guess is that will be a long wait.

 

[jlmatthew]

Except tags are typically classified as antlered or antlerless animals.

Just like men can have a vagina right?

 

[Dougfirtree]

Except tags are typically classified as antlered or antlerless animals.

because.... biology!

 

[schmalts]

If you live here a year, the answer is yes.

You think every person saying they are trans really "lived here a year" or are just wanting to do something for attention or other reasons like a mental health problem? Seems like there is a lot of new fad going on with this.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Are they any tougher than the choices you have to make? Doesn’t everyone face tough choices in life around areas of sexuality, appropriate behavior and interaction with others?

Yes, given the judgements I'm hearing, I firmly believe that my choices as a heterosexual cis man, in our culture, have been substantially easier.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Are they any tougher than the choices you have to make? Doesn’t everyone face tough choices in life around areas of sexuality, appropriate behavior and interaction with others?

Feel like this is bait?

Being born without gender disphoria and attracted to the opposite sex, i have no decisions to make about the issue so how could they be "tough"? A wee bit easier than weighing the decision to mutilate your private parts, take hormones, and face public embarrassment from people "being good Christians" in order to feel normal in your skin.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Just like men can have a vagina right?

You’re making a red herring. Antlered animals can have vaginas.

 

[drexal]

Why not just give everyone the same degree of respect you would expect them to give to you or your grandmother or spouse or child. Respect can always be lost, but at least start at not being judgmental right off the bat. With that said, respect is a two-way street.

 

[VikingsGuy]

You think every person saying they are trans really "lived here a year" or are just wanting to do something for attention or other reasons like a mental health problem? Seems like there is a lot of new fad going on with this.

I will make a stretched parallel, but one I think should cause us all to pause for a minute before we assume how some else's brain works - and about the judgements we can fairly make about that.

Our third kid struggled in school. By all accounts and IQ testing she was just as "smart" as her other two siblings who excelled. But she spent much less time on homework than they did, so at first we chalked it up to lack of caring and lack of work ethic. We took her to specialists in the field - their generations of knowledge about the brain and learning told us there was no reason she couldn't perform to expectations other than lack of interest.

At some point along the journey we discovered via some fairly advanced testing that a disconnect in her brain prevented her from distinguishing visually or orally two common letter combinations. When the doctor showed us one page of text that was edited to mimic what she was seeing neither my wife or I could make heads or tails of it. The fact that she actually learned to read at grade level made her the Einstein of learning, not a laggard. She will never process these letters correctly, there are no real accommodations the world can make for her. She will never get the grades her sibling got -- but she is the farthest thing from lazy or uncaring. What she is able to do in the form God made her is the greatest academic achievement of our family as it see it. On the bright side we now know, and she will graduate from a challenging high school on time and will go to college. I can only imagine how hard this has been for her, but our understanding and acceptance of her mental processes was a game changer according to her (even if late in the game).

I was wrong about my diagnosis of the problem, and my cluelessness was part of her sadness. I will never again assume I know how another person's God given mind processes the world - even when we share DNA and a roof. I certainly can't presume to understand the sincere thoughts and feelings of strangers. That is why it is best that we focus on love, charity and grace toward all of God's peaceful children. Let's leave our judgement for violent felons and financial swindlers.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Like @willm, I see you as a heck of a good guy, but if we are honest, there is a fairly big distinction between choosing to avoid adultery and choosing to remain alone and single for a lifetime all while living what you believe in your heart to be a lie. Given how much the Word tells us about love, charity, humility and kindness - and how often we get even that wrong - I suggest we Christians focus our attention a bit and worry less about consensual bedroom behavior. But of course once we have mastered the core teachings of Christ we can revist the hundreds of other biblical prohibitions we wish to tackle - but my guess is that will be a long wait.

I totally agree that not all burdens are equal in weight. Not all of our conclusions about self identify are simple in origin. The line of distinction between what is biological and what is choice can be murky.

At the end of the day, I understand my responsibility towards others is to do the best I can to point them towards what God says about human behavior without interjecting condemnation that originates from my sense of who or what they are.

I will stand responsible for my behavior before God. Everyone else stands responsible for theirs.

I have no doubt that some of my behavior in life has been outside the parameters of what God has designed as acceptable. I have had to change some behaviors and beliefs about reality to conform to His design. I am continuing to change my behaviors and beliefs as the Holy Spirit gives me understanding of areas that are still not within the parameters of God’s will.

Everyone is broken in some areas of their lives. Everyone has unhealthy and false beliefs about some portion of their identity. The people who have helped me the most in life have been the ones who spoke truth to me and then walked patiently beside me even when I was slow to accept truth.

There is no difference between the brokenness of a heterosexual or a homosexual when they act outside of the boundaries of God’s design. If anything, I would say that in many situations it is the brokenness of the heterosexual relationships of parents that heavily influence their children to try homosexual behavior as an alternative route to love and acceptance.


Sadly, many of us look to sexuality and many other things as an attempt to define our identity. Looking for identity in the wrong places is always going to lead us to draw the wrong conclusions about who we are.

Acceptance of our identity as a human being created in the image of God with the ability to live in harmony with him and with others is the starting point of finding peace in this world. An honest assessment of our inability to live up to what he calls us to leads us to a point of acceptance or rejection of God’s provision for redemption in Christ. An acceptance of Christ redemption on our behalf includes an acceptance of his right to define who we are and how we should live in response to what he has done for us.

Relating obediently to God’s truth is opportunity, not condemnation.

 

[longbow51]

I think what is going on today is different in some cases. I feel like much of what we see is simply people trying to get attention.

The main feature of histrionic personality disorder is displaying excessive, superficial emotionality and sexuality to draw attention to themselves.

Histrionic personality disorder (HPD) is a mental health condition marked by unstable emotions, a distorted self-image and an overwhelming desire to be noticed. People with HPD often behave dramatically or inappropriately to get attention.

A person with histrionic personality disorder may:

• Feel underappreciated or depressed when they’re not the center of attention.
• Have rapidly shifting and shallow emotions.
• Be dramatic and extremely emotionally expressive, even to the point of embarrassing friends and family in public.
• Have a “larger than life” presence.
• Be persistently charming and flirtatious.
• Be overly concerned with their physical appearance.
• Use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves by wearing bright-colored clothing or revealing clothing.
• Act inappropriately sexual with most of the people they meet, even when they’re not sexually attracted to them.
• Speak dramatically and express strong opinions but with few facts or details to support their opinions.
• Be gullible and easily influenced by others, especially by the people they admire.
• Think that their relationships with others are closer than they usually are.
• Have difficulty maintaining relationships, often seeming fake or shallow in their interactions with others.
• Need instant gratification and become bored or frustrated very easily.
• Constantly seek reassurance or approval.

And the root for histrionic is...

 

[VikingsGuy]

I totally agree that not all burdens are equal in weight. Not all of our conclusions about self identify are simple in origin. The line of distinction between what is biological and what is choice can be murky.

At the end of the day, I understand my responsibility towards others is to do the best I can to point them towards what God says about human behavior without interjecting condemnation that originates from my sense of who or what they are.

I will stand responsible for my behavior before God. Everyone is stands responsible for theirs.

I have no doubt that some of my behavior in life has been outside the parameters of what God has designed as acceptable. I have had to change some behaviors and beliefs about reality to conform to His design. I am continuing to change my behaviors and beliefs as the Holy Spirit gives me understanding of areas that are still not within the parameters of God’s will.

Everyone is broken in some areas of their lives. Everyone has unhealthy and false beliefs about some portion of their identity. The people who have helped me the most in life have been the ones who spoke truth to me and then walked patiently beside me even when I was slow to accept truth.

There is no difference between the brokenness of a heterosexual or a homosexual when they act outside of the boundaries of God’s design. If anything, I would say that in many situations it is the brokenness of the heterosexual relationships of parents that heavily influence their children to try homosexual behavior as an alternative route to love and acceptance.


Sadly, many of us look to sexuality and many other things as an attempt to define our identity. Looking for identity in the wrong places is always good to lead is to draw the wrong conclusions about who we are.

Acceptance of our identity as a human being created in the image of God with the ability to live in harmony with him and with others is the starting point of finding peace in this world. An honest assessment of our inability to live up to what he calls us to leads us to a point of acceptance or rejection of God’s provision for redemption in Christ. An acceptance of Christ redemption on our behalf includes an acceptance of his right to define who we are and how we should live in response to what he has done for us.

Relating obediently to God’s truth is opportunity, not condemnation.

There is no doubt you are a good and sincere man - one I would be happy to share a campfire with. If I limit my thoughts to your words alone I give your note a fulsome, "Amen". But it would be insincere of me to leave it at that, as my guess is you and I would differ in our understanding of the meets and bounds of "God's truth" and how that "defines who we are and how we should live".

I just don't see the Word giving me that much personal power and wisdom. My thinking and understanding too can be broken - and I am not willing to "hate the sin, love the sinner" on topics that the Word touches on so briefly when compared to topics like love, kindness, humility, etc. Humility begins with accepting we cannot know all of God's intentions - and certainly not His intentions for others. "Above all else LOVE", commands us to place this first - hate the sin, love the sinner on such personal matters just doesn't seem to meet the standard in my eyes.

I respect your authenticity and thoughtfulness, so hopefully we can respectfully agree to disagree. Go in peace & serve.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think what is going on today is different in some cases. I feel like much of what we see is simply people trying to get attention.

The main feature of histrionic personality disorder is displaying excessive, superficial emotionality and sexuality to draw attention to themselves.

Histrionic personality disorder (HPD) is a mental health condition marked by unstable emotions, a distorted self-image and an overwhelming desire to be noticed. People with HPD often behave dramatically or inappropriately to get attention.

A person with histrionic personality disorder may:

• Feel underappreciated or depressed when they’re not the center of attention.
• Have rapidly shifting and shallow emotions.
• Be dramatic and extremely emotionally expressive, even to the point of embarrassing friends and family in public.
• Have a “larger than life” presence.
• Be persistently charming and flirtatious.
• Be overly concerned with their physical appearance.
• Use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves by wearing bright-colored clothing or revealing clothing.
• Act inappropriately sexual with most of the people they meet, even when they’re not sexually attracted to them.
• Speak dramatically and express strong opinions but with few facts or details to support their opinions.
• Be gullible and easily influenced by others, especially by the people they admire.
• Think that their relationships with others are closer than they usually are.
• Have difficulty maintaining relationships, often seeming fake or shallow in their interactions with others.
• Need instant gratification and become bored or frustrated very easily.
• Constantly seek reassurance or approval.

My first wife got this legit diagnosis - it really sucks being around these folks. I have LGTBQ friends and there is no comparison.

Why must we come up with complicated diagnosis outside our field of expertise to "put in their place" people we don't even know and in no way effect our life. Isn't, they were made differently than me, and that difference makes their life much more difficult for them than mine is for me, a much simpler explanation?

 

[BucksnDucks]

Don't take this wrong, but you started a thread to complain about something that hasn't happened at your workplace, and has only been murmured about, most likely by people who feel the same as you. Thus, this absolutely has to do with the broad context of the pronoun game, because you haven't been compelled in any way to address any person by anything.

Ummm okay. I will clarify.
The senior manager is one of three or four that will institute policy. She brought it up as not if but when this happens.
I started the thread because things are changing at my workplace, as stated the surge of new pronoun listing from the "bosses". Bosses all start doing something- usually a clue.
The broad context being discussed is the statement of preemptive use as noted by manager, not individual basis.
But my apologies for asking a question about something that is happening throughout the country, likely going to happen to me, just not completely yet.

Is that what you mean by "take it the wrong way"? Because I certainly missed your point or see relevance in it.

"The use of preferred pronouns has been brewing in my place of employment for the last few years. A few tags on emails and some discussions here and there, but nothing official. I've seen a surge of use lately from some higher ups and it appears policy decisions could be on the horizon.
I had a talk with a senior manager a few years back, who said we will soon be required to ask coworkers, clients, and customers their pronouns upon introductions. To this I replied, "Respectfully, that is a bad idea, I will not be doing that".
That was a couple years back and there is still no policy, other than a blanket don't discriminate.
Anyone else had to deal with anything like this? Curious if speech like this can be dictated? What I mean in particular is being forced to ask pronouns of everyone you meet or give "your pronoun" to them. Seems like a huge distraction and unnecessary to me."

 

[VikingsGuy]

Anyone else had to deal with anything like this? Curious if speech like this can be dictated? What I mean in particular is being forced to ask pronouns of everyone you meet or give "your pronoun" to them. Seems like a huge distraction and unnecessary to me."

I have seen behavior expectations requiring the respecting of known/communicated pronouns, but never one that requires some canned introductory query of a stranger. I have seen all kinds of businesses have mandatory phrases/actions for use with customers "do you want fries with that", "next meal free if we don't ask if you want a receipt", that stupid tip the Blizzard upside down thing at DQ, but never on such a sensitive topic. It seems unworkable and while it maybe someone's aspiration, hard to see it actually rolled out with teeth -- but who knows.

 

[BuzzH]

You think every person saying they are trans really "lived here a year" or are just wanting to do something for attention or other reasons like a mental health problem? Seems like there is a lot of new fad going on with this.

Don't know, don't care, I'm not a gender/pronoun warden.

Further, I don't think any regulation, law, or rule is being broken even if I were.