Preferred Pronouns

[VikingsGuy]

I can not disagree . As always, your thoughts and posts are very well written and stated.

However; if I may. When in college, and subjects like, "origin of species vs the bible", conservative politics vs liberal politics, feminist/race/gender issues, and even the "pronoun" discussion, never ended without those on the "WOK" side of the issue shouting, threatening our rooms, sororities, employment, family and even bodily harm to myself and friends, if we didn't agree with them.

If anyone disagrees with them, they didn't continue to discuss the issue or even politely agree that we was never going to agree and shake hands and move on. It had to be their way or no way. Does their shouting and threatening, make them right ?

Abortion after the first trimester and no men in girls sports were both things that were important to me, but I not once threatened bodily harm to anyone who disagreed with me, but I was not only threatened but accosted, tires slashed, friends threatened, paint ball thrown at me, which did not make me change my mind, but strengthened my will, to continue to speak out about those issues I believed in. My father brought my car home and got me a "beater" to drive, but he not once said--"why dont you just go along, to get along"

When I get married, why is it not alright to be "Mrs" if that is what I chose ? I know you dont care, but their are feminist out there that do and will not be happy until every female is walking in lock step with them. I will not

My grandfather still use's the word "honey" a lot when speaking to a female person he dont know. He still opens doors for women, even me. I admit, I did not understand why he insisted on walking on the street side of me when walking down the street. I respect him, love him, thank him and appreciate him although I dont agree with him on every issue. but we are still able to fish together without even mentioning our differences

When we are our best selves we avoid lowering ourselves to the lowest of others. Since I seem to have a chaotic mix of "conservative" and "liberal" beliefs I have managed to be shouted down by both left and right at different times. I just stick to reason and empathy, and leave shouts and threats to others. In the long run the broader audience sees all of this, and respectful articulation holds more sway than irrationality over time. Both sides over reach when they behave in the ways you note. There is already much talk in the US about backlash against progressive overreach of the last few years. (which in their own right were backlash against overreach of the alt right).

In the end, stay true to yourself, but challenge yourself once in a while to see if you are as loving and empathetic towards others as we are called to be. Don't worry too much about other's poor behavior along the way.

 

[okie archer]

I work with someone who was born a man and went through a transition to woman. If you worked with this person, would you refuse to address them by her/she because she was born a male?

If the person was born a man he will die as a man and be judged by God as a man. No amount of surgeries, hormones, mannerisms, therapy, clothing will ever change that.
God at the beginning made male and female. To defy that is to defy God. I submit to God and His unchanging Word, not to this world.
So to answer your question, yes I would refuse to address the man as a woman. It does not mean I hate the person it means I love God and can confidentiality stand by these convictions and still not mistreat people.

 

[DouglasR]

I work with someone who was born a man and went through a transition to woman. If you worked with this person, would you refuse to address them by her/she because she was born a male?

You talking about Mitch-elli?

 

[KB_]

Man, I just cannot jive with any sort of regulation or rule or law that has anything to do with the human body, their health, and their freakin gender.

Whos business is it when it comes to your own body? certainly not the government unless you sign up for the military.

I dont need a law or regulation to simply treat people like human beings.

I have a firm belief that anybody should be able to do what ever they want with their own bodies. Nobody gets to have final say about my body, and I want nothing to do with someone's business with their own body. Frankly I dont care to even hear about it unless its a close friend and its medical emergency.

In the work place, I do not care about what gender my co worker is. If the job is done and done well, we are good to go in my book.

What ever happened to peoples business staying their business. Medical or politics. I remember as a kid my dad would tell me its nobody else's business your political beliefs, your opinion is your own and you make your own decisions.

Crazy world we live in. Tough to navigate. So I'm gonna go watch star wars now.

 

[VikingsGuy]

As usual I appreciate the thoughtful reply. What I am trying to express here is the empathy and understanding needs to go both ways.
People can have the freedom to their own way of using language. For example using we to describe a singular person or made up terms like Zir. People should not be forbidden from using these words or discriminated against for it.
If I choose not to participate in this new use of the English language, I should also enjoy that freedom. I expect the same respect and freedom to use or not use the language I see as appropriate.
This has nothing to do with addressing someone individually, it is in broad context of being compelled to play the new pronoun game.

If choice of words was sterile and didn't signal bias or preconceptions I would generally agree. But this doesn't work in reality. Words carry subtext and convey values. There are words one could choose that clearly signal disrespect to others. In an extreme, I can't use the N** word with my Black colleagues and if they object argue that they need to respect my choice of words. I do not believe we should exercise the theoretical freedom to use the N word or to repeated call a woman who kept her maiden name after marriage as Mrs. Steve Johnson - and I know people who do both at times. I believe we should use our free will to support others, not color a discussion before it even begins.

I try to respect others use of labels for themselves, not because they are my choice of words or even that they make sense to me, but rather to signal to them that I see them as a human worthy of basic respect and kindness. I do not view use of their preferred label as some huge concession to every position of a large movement - one this person may not even fully agree with. In turn, I expect them to acknowledge my welcoming approach by not canceling me when I screw up my attempt.

It really is the platinum rule - do unto others as they wish for you to do to them -- there is no grammar exception to the platinum rule.

 

[VikingsGuy]

For the vast majority of us, I imagine we run into someone that uses they/them vary rarely, is it really even an issue? I've honestly only seen it used in news stories.

I work for a large multi-national with very strong diversity culture, live in a major metro market that is viewed as fairly liberal, and live in a suburb with a high percentage of over educated folks who are quick to align in favor of the latest social trend, and even with all this, it is a very very rare topic for me.

 

[Irrelevant]

I'm just gonna drop this here. Some may be interested in going beyond Sunday school and BIO 101.

Series | Radiolab | WNYC Studios

Investigating a strange world.

radiolab.org

However, I can't post and not comment on the shear number of people offended at someone else being offended at someone. What's the derivative of snowflake? Dare I say it's shaped like a large grey mammal with tusks and floppy ears? I can assure you this libertard (sp?) is not offended that you're offended that someone else is offended by something someone did or did not say. The buck stops with me.

 

[KB_]

I work for a large multi-national with very strong diversity culture, live in a major metro market that is viewed as fairly liberal, and live in a suburb with a high percentage of over educated folks who are quick to align in favor of the latest social trend, and even with all this, it is a very very rare topic for me.

Are they really that educated if they are so quick to align with the latest social trend? lol Seems like educated folks will align with ideas that have facts behind them or at least have solid evidence. Of course educated folks is a subjective term these days, you can get a degree in just about anything. Just cause one has a degree doesn't make them smart, or at the very least objective.

Prime example, I have two degrees and build AI for a living. I'm a self described nin-come-poop.

 

[VikingsGuy]

If the person was born a man he will die as a man and be judged by God as a man. No amount of surgeries, hormones, mannerisms, therapy, clothing will ever change that.
God at the beginning made male and female. To defy that is to defy God. I submit to God and His unchanging Word, not to this world.
So to answer your question, yes I would refuse to address the man as a woman. It does not mean I hate the person it means I love God and can confidentiality stand by these convictions and still not mistreat people.

God made each person in his own likeness. He gave his son to the cross to teach a message of love, charity, forgiveness and redemption to a broken world. Who am I to cherry pick passages from the Bible and question his plans for each of his children. I would rather be a loving, humble and empathetic transgender person standing in front of our God at the time of Judgement than to do so as a close-minded biological male using my reading of his words to justify my lack of love for all his children.

 

[Scott85]

If the person was born a man he will die as a man and be judged by God as a man. No amount of surgeries, hormones, mannerisms, therapy, clothing will ever change that.
God at the beginning made male and female. To defy that is to defy God. I submit to God and His unchanging Word, not to this world.
So to answer your question, yes I would refuse to address the man as a woman. It does not mean I hate the person it means I love God and can confidentiality stand by these convictions and still not mistreat people.

What does Matthew 7 say about judging people? Every last one of us will have to stand before him. I would rather much rather go before the judgement seat of Christ with my heart filled of love of fellow man no matter who they are, how they wanted to be called or if wanted to be a man or woman. They will have to have to have that talk with him but that’s between them.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Are they really that educated if they are so quick to align with the latest social trend? lol Seems like educated folks will align with ideas that have facts behind them or at least have solid evidence. Of course educated folks is a subjective term these days, you can get a degree in just about anything. Just cause one has a degree doesn't make them smart, or at the very least objective.

Prime example, I have two degrees and build AI for a living. I'm a self described nin-come-poop.

I generally agree with your thoughts, but I used education in the literal sense. I was not saying they were wise, thoughtful, earnest, considered, rational or any other attribute. I was just conveying I spend a lot of time around the type of people we would expect to bring up this topic a lot and it just doesn't happen at the rate folks seem to fear (in my experience).

 

[HUNT TALK MAN]

NEFF!!! THEY SLASHED RANDS TIRS!! THEY AR SATAN!!!

 

[MarvB]

….just sayin

 

[TimeOnTarget]

Based on others trying to get my attention, My pronoun is Dickhead. Which I generally respond to.

 

[BucksnDucks]

If choice of words was sterile and didn't signal bias or preconceptions I would generally agree. But this doesn't work in reality. Words carry subtext and convey values. There are words one could choose that clearly signal disrespect to others. In an extreme, I can't use the N** word with my Black colleagues and if they object argue that they need to respect my choice of words. I do not believe we should exercise the theoretical freedom to use the N word or to repeated call a woman who kept her maiden name after marriage as Mrs. Steve Johnson - and I know people who do both at times. I believe we should use our free will to support others, not color a discussion before it even begins.

I try to respect others use of labels for themselves, not because they are my choice of words or even that they make sense to me, but rather to signal to them that I see them as a human worthy of basic respect and kindness. I do not view use of their preferred label as some huge concession to every position of a large movement - one this person may not even fully agree with. In turn, I expect them to acknowledge my welcoming approach by not canceling me when I screw up my attempt.

It really is the platinum rule - do unto others as they wish for you to do to them -- there is no grammar exception to the platinum rule.

I think what is being missed is this- "This has nothing to do with addressing someone individually, it is in broad context of being compelled to play the new pronoun game"
I agree with what you said. I treat individuals as I wish to be treated. I will treat them fairly, based on the individual. Address them as they wish, within reason.
What I will not do is view everyone and all my interactions through this new lense of asking all people their pronouns and announcing to everyone my own.
If people cannot see my objections are reasonable and without harm, perhaps they are the biased one.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think what is being missed is this- "This has nothing to do with addressing someone individually, it is in broad context of being compelled to play the new pronoun game"
I agree with what you said. I treat individuals as I wish to be treated. I will treat them fairly, based on the individual. Address them as they wish, within reason.
What I will not do is view everyone and all my interactions through this new lense of asking all people their pronouns and announcing to everyone my own.
If people cannot see my objections are reasonable and without harm, perhaps they are the biased one.

As an individual, acting on my own behalf, I have not and likely never will greet everyone with a generic request for pronouns -seems silly and awkward (as you have said). However, if I had a job I liked and their rules required me to then I would. I do all kinds of dumb stuff for my employer that waste more time than this. But, their paycheck, their rules.

It is not, bias or not bias, it is employment at will. They set the rules, and you choose to work there or not. If you quit because this is so stressful for you, then I respect your personal choice (just don't expect me to subsidize your unemployment insurance or food stamps).

 

[BucksnDucks]

However, I can't post and not comment on the shear number of people offended at someone else being offended at someone. What's the derivative of snowflake? Dare I say it's shaped like a large grey mammal with tusks and floppy ears? I can assure you this libertard (sp?) is not offended that you're offended that someone else is offended by something someone did or did not say. The buck stops with me.

This has been an interesting angle expressed throughout thread. Because I choose not to eagerly engage in pronoun use, that equals being offended? Disagreement with compelled speech equals being offended?
Terms are often over used and tossed around. Snowflake, offended, Libtard etc..
I don't think a position of disapproval with current state of things in this matter equals being offended, but then again feel free to label those on the other side.

 

[okie archer]

What does Matthew 7 say about judging people? Every last one of us will have to stand before him. I would rather much rather go before the judgement seat of Christ with my heart filled of love of fellow man no matter who they are, how they wanted to be called or if wanted to be a man or woman. They will have to have to have that talk with him but that’s between them.

Yes Scott, I understand Matthew 7 but I have also read 1 Corinthians 7:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest of matters?

I also understand that if you love someone you will tell them the truth, in love of course. Love does not mean accepting what Gods word calls sin as ok. Love warns people to turn to Christ for salvation. If I were a doctor, what kind of doc would I be if I had the cure for an incurable disease and refused to share it with others? Same applies as a Christian. What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't point people to salvation? Instead I went along with sin as if everything is ok. I would be a deceiver. At the end of the day God is the final judge. His word will not change no matter how societies and culture changes. I have a responsibility to love others at the same time declare the word of truth.

Romans 1:26-32
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature; and likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So what often happens is when people come to understand that their lifestyle (not just LGBT, but all sins) contradict the Bible, instead of confession and repentance the next step is to reject God's word and attempt to undermine the validity of scripture. Also calling those that submit to God's word, Bible thumper, zealot, bigot, hater, etc.

 

[BuzzH]

What does Matthew 7 say about judging people? Every last one of us will have to stand before him. I would rather much rather go before the judgement seat of Christ with my heart filled of love of fellow man no matter who they are, how they wanted to be called or if wanted to be a man or woman. They will have to have to have that talk with him but that’s between them.

IMO, neither god or biology get it right...

Chromosomes and intersex are real...and biological.

So who do we get to blame or talk to about that? Biology or god?

Just curious.

 

[BucksnDucks]

it is not, bias or not bias, it is employment at will. They set the rules, and you choose to work there or not.

Lots of moving parts in my particular situation and not so cut and dried. I believe that is why no policy or directives have been put out, just mentioned for years.