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Preferred Pronouns

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BuzzH said:
IMO, neither god or biology get it right...

Chromosomes, intersex, are real...and biological.

So who do we get to blame or talk to about that? Biology or god?
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Both. But I suspect you're not looking for an exhaustive explanation of the laws of human biology, or even time and chance, or free will released upon the world at the time of creation (per a biblical reading). I also suspect you're not looking to the Bible for answers regarding lifestyle choices, the immortality of the soul, or whether or not any god truly exists.

As I noted in my post previously, the biblical example or explanation for how I chose to handle certain situations only applies to me because of my personal view on the bible and God. It was not intended to influence or persuade anyone else in general, and particularly not anyone who doesn't hold a similar view of the bible or God. Besides, if one doesn't believe in an eternal soul or the existence of heaven or hell, why would one care if I, or others, believe one is destined for either?

Because of all that, your question doesn't make sense. There is no "blame" for "Chromosomes, intersex . . ." as both as just simply things that exist. What question are you really asking? Do you want to know how someone like me, or how my interpretation of the bible, views intersex people? Do you want to know the biblical stance on male/female chromosomes? What is the end goal of your question?
 
I most certainly identify as Snowflake, offended, Libtard and all of the above.....
















When someone eats my damn Double Stuff Oreos!
 
ajrcktts said:
Both. But I suspect you're not looking for an exhaustive explanation of the laws of human biology, or even time and chance, or free will released upon the world at the time of creation (per a biblical reading). I also suspect you're not looking to the Bible for answers regarding lifestyle choices, the immortality of the soul, or whether or not any god truly exists.

As I noted in my post previously, the biblical example or explanation for how I chose to handle certain situations only applies to me because of my personal view on the bible and God. It was not intended to influence or persuade anyone else in general, and particularly not anyone who doesn't hold a similar view of the bible or God. Besides, if one doesn't believe in an eternal soul or the existence of heaven or hell, why would one care if I, or others, believe one is destined for either?

Because of all that, your question doesn't make sense. There is no "blame" for "Chromosomes, intersex . . ." as both as just simply things that exist. What question are you really asking? Do you want to know how someone like me, or how my interpretation of the bible, views intersex people? Do you want to know the biblical stance on male/female chromosomes? What is the end goal of your question?
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I've always just been curious why an all powerful god would allow biology to exist that is far from perfect, in particular in the biology regarding those allegedly created in his image? Either god isn't as perfect as reported, or has a really ugly sense of humor.

Why would anyone have to answer to anybody...you, me, god, or biology for something out of their control? That is unless you believe a person has control over their chromosomes and the undercarriage(s) they're born with.

You said those people will have to answer to god, I don't understand why they have anyone to answer to? What is there to answer for?
 
It’s a interesting subject. I deal with 2-300 customers a year, have for 22 years in my business, hundreds of employees for multiple companies over that time also. In all that time, emails, texts, in person conversations, it’s never come up.

I don’t have a problem calling someone by whatever they want. No point in being disrespectful to people without cause.

My first experience with this was last summer when I sent one of my daughters to Montana wilderness school to take a course titled “acquiring skills for the backcountry hunter”. The course was multiple day backcountry experience with a group of teens. Part of their “team building” was requiring the kids to take turns carrying around a rainbow dash stuffed animal that it was made clear was to be referred to as a they/them rather than a she. My daughter, being one of 6 girls, growing up in a home where rainbow dash was obviously a element of their childhood, pointed out that factually, 100% google verifiable, rainbow dash is a girl. This didn’t make one of the instructors happy, and he/him/they/them made sure to correct her or the other kids anytime she/they referred to it as a her/she. So that’s where we are, redefining inanimate objects gender preferences to children. Interesting.

It does seem to be something that is more prominent in academia.
 
The Native Americans had an interesting perspective.

Two-Spirit​

Native dancers

Though Two-Spirit may now be included in the umbrella of LGBTQ, The term "Two-Spirit" does not simply mean someone who is a Native American/Alaska Native and gay.
Traditionally, Native American two-spirit people were male, female, and sometimes intersexed individuals who combined activities of both men and women with traits unique to their status as two-spirit people. In most tribes, they were considered neither men nor women; they occupied a distinct, alternative gender status. In tribes where two-spirit males and females were referred to with the same term, this status amounted to a third gender. In other cases, two-spirit females were referred to with a distinct term and, therefore, constituted a fourth gender. Although there were important variations in two-spirit roles across North America, they shared some common traits:
  • Specialized work roles. Male and female two-spirit people were typically described in terms of their preference for and achievements in the work of the "opposite" sex or in activities specific to their role. Two-spirit individuals were experts in traditional arts - such as pottery making, basket weaving, and the manufacture and decoration of items made from leather. Among the Navajo, two-spirit males often became weavers, usually women and men's work, as well as healers, which was a male role. By combining these activities, they were often among the wealthier members of the tribe. Two-spirit females engaged in activities such as hunting and warfare, and became leaders in war and even chiefs.
  • Gender variation. A variety of other traits distinguished two-spirit people from men and women, including temperament, dress, lifestyle, and social roles.
  • Spiritual sanction. Two-spirit identity was widely believed to be the result of supernatural intervention in the form of visions or dreams and sanctioned by tribal mythology. In many tribes, two spirit people filled special religious roles as healers, shamans, and ceremonial leaders.
  • Same-sex relations. Two-spirit people typically formed sexual and emotional relationships with non-two-spirit members of their own sex, forming both short- and long-term relationships. Among the Lakota, Mohave, Crow, Cheyenne, and others, two-spirit people were believed to be lucky in love, and able to bestow this luck on others.
People getting outraged about this has been going on for a long time.

Osh-Tisch​

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Osh-Tisch (Crow: "Finds Them and Kills Them")[1][2] was a Crow badé. A badé (also spelled baté) is a male-bodied person in a Crow community who takes part in some of the social and ceremonial roles usually filled by women in that culture.
Osh-Tisch fought in the 1876 Battle of the Rosebud, as recounted by Pretty Shield.[3] During the battle, Osh-Tisch and a woman named The Other Magpie saved Bull Snake, and Osh-Tisch later shot a Lakota warrior, for which Osh-Tisch received her name.[3][4]
In the late 1890s, an American agent named Briskow, tasked with forcing the Plains Indians to assimilate into the dominant culture, jailed Osh-Tisch and the other badés, and forced them to get masculine haircuts, wear masculine clothing, and perform manual labor such as planting trees. The Crow, who considered their badés valuable members of their community, particularly known for their needlework and cooking,[5] were outraged, saying this abuse went against their nature.[6] Chief Pretty Eagle used what power he had to compel the agent to resign and leave tribal lands.[2] Crow historian Joe Medicine Crow, delivering this oral history in 1982 said, "It was a tragedy, trying to change them."[7]
Osh-Tisch was one of the last known badés of the Crow Nation, and the institution of the badé is said to have gone into decline during Osh-Tisch's life.[8] With modern LGBT communities providing more options in current society, some contemporary badé people may participate in a revival of these traditions, or in the modern, pan-Indian two-spirit or LGBT communities.
 
BuzzH said:
I've always just been curious why an all powerful god would allow biology to exist that is far from perfect, in particular in the biology regarding those allegedly created in his image? Either god isn't as perfect as reported, or has a really ugly sense of humor.

Why would anyone have to answer to anybody...you, me, god, or biology for something out of their control? That is unless you believe a person has control over their chromosomes and the undercarriage(s) they're born with.

You said those people will have to answer to god, I don't understand why they have anyone to answer to? What is there to answer for?
Click to expand...

the myriad complicated theological answers to these questions are irrelevant to one who doesn't believe in God or the bible. but, there are answers to them.

regardless the bible is very explicit in how it dictates christians treat everyone (strong emphasis on EVERYONE). to me, that means if someone asks me to call him a her, then the loving thing is to do so.

christians really tend to overlook the most overarching and important concept of what it means to be a christian, and that is to be CHRISTlike, however assuredly imperfectly you will always do so. but it's the overarching purpose and goal.
 
BucksnDucks said:
I think what is being missed is this- "This has nothing to do with addressing someone individually, it is in broad context of being compelled to play the new pronoun game"
I agree with what you said. I treat individuals as I wish to be treated. I will treat them fairly, based on the individual. Address them as they wish, within reason.
What I will not do is view everyone and all my interactions through this new lense of asking all people their pronouns and announcing to everyone my own.
If people cannot see my objections are reasonable and without harm, perhaps they are the biased one.
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Don't take this wrong, but you started a thread to complain about something that hasn't happened at your workplace, and has only been murmured about, most likely by people who feel the same as you. Thus, this absolutely has to do with the broad context of the pronoun game, because you haven't been compelled in any way to address any person by anything.
 
BuzzH said:
1. I've always just been curious why an all powerful god would allow biology to exist that is far from perfect, in particular in the biology regarding those allegedly created in his image? Either god isn't as perfect as reported, or has a really ugly sense of humor.

2. Why would anyone have to answer to anybody...you, me, god, or biology for something out of their control? That is unless you believe a person has control over their chromosomes and the undercarriage(s) they're born with.

You said those people will have to answer to god, I don't understand why they have anyone to answer to? What is there to answer for?
Click to expand...
To be clear, I did not say the above in bold. I may have said that I personally have to answer to God. But whether I believe God exists and has rules for my life is irrelevant to anyone else. I'm not asking you, or anyone else, to abide by my personal view of God and the bible.

I've numbered your questions for clearer responses.

1. This is a non-sequitur. Perfect or imperfect biology is irrelevant from a biblical salvation standpoint. There is no evidence in scripture, as far as I can recall, that holds people accountable for their personal biology. Again, I'm not sure what you're asking here. If nothing else, the laws of motion, physics, biology, consequences, etc. were all in place after creation. Sometimes things go wrong, or unfortunate things are acted upon someone outside of his/her/their control. In order words, stuff happens. As noted above, this isn't exactly a simple question, but there are answers to questions like this which this forum style doesn't provide sufficient opportunity to address.

2. Quite simply, they don't. I'm not asking anyone to answer to me. And, again, my personal religious beliefs are irrelevant to anyone else. I'm simply asking that I be permitted to live within my set of beliefs as you and others are asking to live within yours/theirs.
 
TOGIE said:
the myriad complicated theological answers to these questions are irrelevant to one who doesn't believe in God or the bible. but, there are answers to them.

regardless the bible is very explicit in how it dictates christians treat everyone (strong emphasis on EVERYONE). to me, that means if someone asks me to call him a her, then the loving thing is to do so.

christians really tend to overlook the most overarching and important concept of what it means to be a christian, and that is to be CHRISTlike, however assuredly imperfectly you will always do so. but it's the overarching purpose and goal.
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I believe its a test, and many are failing the test, they're the ones that may have some answering to do.
 
BuzzH said:
I believe its a test, and many are failing the test, they're the ones that may have some answering to do.
Click to expand...

well and here's the thing, you're not wrong.

as far as the biblical perspective goes, we're all gonna have some serious answering to do, every last one of us. there is no measuring stick with a gradation of folks landing somewhere on it having differing levels of answering to do. from a biblical perspective we're all shits heading for the shitter. that's what makes christianity so profound.
 
BuzzH said:
I've always just been curious why an all powerful god would allow biology to exist that is far from perfect, in particular in the biology regarding those allegedly created in his image? Either god isn't as perfect as reported, or has a really ugly sense of humor.

Why would anyone have to answer to anybody...you, me, god, or biology for something out of their control? That is unless you believe a person has control over their chromosomes and the undercarriage(s) they're born with.

You said those people will have to answer to god, I don't understand why they have anyone to answer to? What is there to answer for?
Click to expand...

No one has to answer to God for who they are born to be. Everyone has to answer to God for the choices we make.

Proclivities, genetics, family environments, cultural expectations, self belief about our identity all influence the choices we make and whether we choose to operate in harmony with God’s design for humanity.

I didn’t choose to be born a heterosexual white male. Certain aspects of my identity have been defined and given to me independently of how I feel about myself.

But I definitely choose how I behave and the choices I make as I interact with people and the natural world. I also experience the consequences of those choices both good and bad.

Gender dysphoria, intersex, and genetic anomalies of all types are a reality in this broken world. Individuals with those genetic or chromosomal characteristics bear no condemnation because of the characteristics they were given in life. But they like everyone else bear responsibility to God for the choices they make.


There is a basic question that precedes much of the discussion around this issue.

Are reality and truth objective or can an individual change reality and truth by their belief of what reality and truth are?
 
Gerald Martin said:
No one has to answer to God for who they are born to be. Everyone has to answer to God for the choices we make.

Proclivities, genetics, family environments, cultural expectations, self belief about our identity all influence the choices we make and whether we choose to operate in harmony with God’s design for humanity.

I didn’t choose to be born a heterosexual white male. Certain aspects of my identity have been defined and given to me independently of how I feel about myself.

But I definitely choose how I behave and the choices I make as I interact with people and the natural world. I also experience the consequences of those choices both good and bad.

Gender dysphoria, intersex, and genetic anomalies of all types are a reality in this broken world. Individuals with those genetic or chromosomal characteristics bear no condemnation because of the characteristics they were given in life. But they like everyone else bear responsibility to God for the choices they make.


There is a basic question that precedes much of the discussion around this issue.

Are reality and truth objective or can an individual change reality and truth by their belief of what reality and truth are?
Click to expand...
I believe in the existence an objective truth, but I also think that it's rarely simple and often not very clear. Our understanding of truth is limited and ever-evolving, and I think that the loudest voices on objective truth are failing to acknowledge the nuance in it. In a sense, a firm belief in objective truth can represent a rigid mind that isn't open to considering alternative evidence. I know in my life, the areas I've been the most rigid in my thinking are the points I look back at with the most regret, because they led to me speaking or acting in ways that weren't consistent with my faith or beliefs.
 
rwc101 said:
Cultures having more than two genders isn't recent or particularly rare.


www.pbs.org

Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures

On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders.
www.pbs.org www.pbs.org
Click to expand...
I think what is going on today is different in some cases. I feel like much of what we see is simply people trying to get attention.

The main feature of histrionic personality disorder is displaying excessive, superficial emotionality and sexuality to draw attention to themselves.

Histrionic personality disorder (HPD) is a mental health condition marked by unstable emotions, a distorted self-image and an overwhelming desire to be noticed. People with HPD often behave dramatically or inappropriately to get attention.

A person with histrionic personality disorder may:

  • Feel underappreciated or depressed when they’re not the center of attention.
  • Have rapidly shifting and shallow emotions.
  • Be dramatic and extremely emotionally expressive, even to the point of embarrassing friends and family in public.
  • Have a “larger than life” presence.
  • Be persistently charming and flirtatious.
  • Be overly concerned with their physical appearance.
  • Use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves by wearing bright-colored clothing or revealing clothing.
  • Act inappropriately sexual with most of the people they meet, even when they’re not sexually attracted to them.
  • Speak dramatically and express strong opinions but with few facts or details to support their opinions.
  • Be gullible and easily influenced by others, especially by the people they admire.
  • Think that their relationships with others are closer than they usually are.
  • Have difficulty maintaining relationships, often seeming fake or shallow in their interactions with others.
  • Need instant gratification and become bored or frustrated very easily.
  • Constantly seek reassurance or approval.
 
Speaking truth in love is what Christians are called to do.

Sadly, love is often lacking in many conversations and truth can be lacking in other conversations.

When my daughter began self-harming herself in reaction to the pain of rejection and loss of friends I certainly didn’t speak truth into her life by saying, “Listen here you stupid, little, biotch. Stop that behavior or else I will really cause you harm.”

But neither did I affirm her behavior as being healthy and beneficial. Walking through that stage of her life with her away from self harm into a healthier sense of identity and relationship to reality and people required patience and understanding on my part that went beyond a simplistic approach to life.
It also required her to abandon some beliefs about herself, God and people because they weren’t true.
 
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