More ATV Lawbreaking

[Oak]

Confiscation laws are great, but they need to have the teeth of being MANDATORY. We've got them in place here, but they are only used in very aggravated cases. Of course, if you make it mandatory you've got to be willing to take everything away from Joe Six-pack who was out shooting doe to feed his family and got caught. Now, I don't feel sorry for Joe, but I'm sure many here would.

Confiscation laws won't stop everyone, either. Two cases in point: A guy we hooked for shooting at a decoy in his headlights... when told he could lose his gun and the $35,000 Ford truck with the $12,000 cab-over camper..."Are you kidding?! I just bought this rifle!" Second, five guys busted for driving down the HIGHWAY, shooting out of their vehicle at a herd of elk running along the road, killing a total of 8 elk...paid their thousands and thousands of dollars in fines in cash, and then were wondering if they could buy the antlers of the elk they killed.

Oak

 

[Mini Moose]

Yes Ithica since 1997(six years ago) there must have been another bill because when talking to the local game warden about 6 months ago he gave several examples in the malad palisades(sp) and northern idaho areas where vehicles were confiscated along with other hunting equipment, The only thing that wasn't called for in all the research i did on the penalties was felonies and mandatory jail sentances, i personally would love to see the day when every poaching penalty ment a fixed jail term hunting privaledges revoked for life and confiscation of all equuipment used, but unfortunately i don't see it happening any time soon, ATVs can and will be used illegally as long as they are around but outright banishment of them isn't going to solve anything, The majority of ATV users don't use them illegally, as much as you would argue, it is a small minority of people giving all ATVERs a bad name just like poachers give hunters a bad rep there will always be assholes ruining somethign good and there is no way around that, but i do ask keep an open mind about all of it and don't let it get to you so bad you can't live your life worrying about what other people are doing you have to worry about yourself to much

Happy Hunting

 

[dgibson]

Clarifications please:

1. I'm still waiting for the answer on whether you guys are truly concerned for the environment or whether you are really just angry because the ATVers mess up your hunting. Brass tacks, people. (I think I know where Ithaca stands...the rest I'm not so sure.)

2. Given that the F&G/USFWS/etc. departments are already complaining about lack of manpower and time to catch the already existing lawbreakers, what good is an all-out ban going to do? They can't catch them now...why will a ban change that? Or is it really just so the angry people can put a smile on their faces?

3. To the "don't lump us with the bad guys" crowd: I've seen a lot of good points about not being blamed for misuse, but what do you propose to DO about it? Like it or not, ALL ATVers are getting a bad name from these wingnuts, so I'm not sure that taking the high ground and saying "it isn't right" is going to do it anymore. Does anyone have a realistic solution to the problem?

 

[Hangar18]

More reading Ithaca. This article appears in the October issue of Blue Ribbon Magazine. I still have not heard back from the BRC on their position regarding HR 3247.

National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council

Nothing on penalties though.

Some Partials
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
ETHICS
Increasing numbers of hunters are actually hunting from their ATVs rather than on foot. This behavior raises concerns of “fair chase” and can reflect poorly on hunting and hunters. While hunting from an ATV is legal and appropriate in some states for certain people with disabilities, able-bodied hunters should “walk when they stalk” to uphold the “fair chase” ethic.

ENVIRONMENTAL AWARENESS
Stay on existing roads or trails. Cross-country travel on ATVs can create a network of new tracks or trails that cause soil erosion and damage to fish and wildlife habitats. Cross-country travel can also spread invasive species, which can ruin habitat. Do not contribute to resource damage and habitat destruction by creating new tracks for others to follow. When you drive off a road, you leave a track that others will follow and you may be creating resource damage.

Be prepared to backpack or horse pack game out of areas that do not have existing roads or trails or allow travel off existing roads and trails for game retrieval.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[1_pointer]

Nut- I don't like 'em because of the damage to the resource. If I get a hunt botched because of someone else on public land, that's fine and part of hunting public land. I may bitch about it at the time, but have no problem with it. Though cross-country travel is legal in many places around here, I HATE! I'll start taking some pics of areas that have been really tore up because of this. With the number of roads in many areas (which are open to ATVs) I hate when they feel they have to go cross-country.

You guys have seen pics of me, I am far from slender, but will hike to where I can to hunt. If I don't get an animal because I couldn't get to where they are I see two options: 1. find a place with critters that is easier to get to 2. get in better shape! Right now I'm working on #2 as I get more satisfaction out of having to work a bit for the critter. Don't get me wrong, I'll take the easy ones if offered, but working for them makes the success all the sweeter. IMO, hunting is not always supposed to be easy.

 

[Nut]

Thanks for answering to me pointer. But this is my first post on this thread

 

[dgibson]

Thanks for answering, though, 1_p...at least you're man enough to be honest. And those are hard words to say to a former Hoosier.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

I'd be upset if it ruined a hunt for me, but that can happen on public land whether the other guys are on foot or on horseback. (Both have happened to me, but I haven't had a hunt ruined by an ATV yet - go figure.) If an ATV can be used without damage, then I have no problem with it being used to retrieve downed game. But I don't believe it is ethical to hunt from one, just like chasing down game with planes or trucks or dune buggies.

Just like dog training is forbidden on wildlife refuges during the Spring when the young birds are hatching and not yet flying, ATVs should be banned from the forest during sensitive times for whatever wildlife is there.

 

[1_pointer]

Sorry Nut, I didn't mean to insult you by confusing you with DG! I thought I was going to have to dis-own my brother when he married a Kentuck'!!!

I guess there's at least one smart person from KY, she moved to IN!!!

 

[Ithaca 37]

Hanger, The problem with the Off Highway Conservation Council and all the rest of the organizations that claim to be trying to educate everyone is that nothing they do is working. The problems with ATVs get worse every year. If those organizations were serious they'd be pushing for more severe penalties. How many snowmobile clubs you ever seen that lobby for tougher penalties for snowmobilers breaking the law?

dg, "1. I'm still waiting for the answer on whether you guys are truly concerned for the environment or whether you are really just angry because the ATVers mess up your hunting. Brass tacks, people. (I think I know where Ithaca stands...the rest I'm not so sure.)"

I'm truly appalled at the environmental damage I see. The ATV crowd doesn't mess up much of my hunting because I go places they are too lazy to even try to ride to, but I see them messing up hunting for other people and I think that's bad for the whole hunting community.

"2. Given that the F&G/USFWS/etc. departments are already complaining about lack of manpower and time to catch the already existing lawbreakers, what good is an all-out ban going to do? They can't catch them now...why will a ban change that? Or is it really just so the angry people can put a smile on their faces?"

One problem is confusing regulations and perceptions about what is legal and illegal or unethical. Banning them from all but roads made for vehicular travel will make it so simple even the ATV crowd might understand it. No ATV allowed off any roads anywhere is the only answer. Allow them to go on trails and they'll start new trails everywhere and claim it was an existing trail when they got on it. You'd have to catch the first guy making a new trail and that's almost impossible.

Remember, You're dealing with people who are too lazy to get off their asses and walk even two hundred yards and think it's their right to ride everywhere. If you allow retrievel of game then the next ATV that comes along will claim he was only riding on an existing trail.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-15-2003 19:36: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

DG,

My take on the ATV's is that they do damage year round, and not just during hunting season. I would encourage restrictions to roads and maintained trails, in order to lessen (or confine) damage.

As for my hunting places, we actually use ATVs to our advantage. Our Elk season opened up Oct. 15, and for the 10 prior days, we had a deer season open, and a Spike season. The Fat-Assed ATV Riders push all the Elk into a place we hunt, that is near vertical, and not accessible to ATVs due to the terrain. We go in on foot, and take packs, and haul Elk out on our backs.

So, specifically, they do not disturb MY hunts. But, I can tell you of an entire region, the Owyhees (SW Corner of Idaho), that I think has the best Mule Deer in Idaho, and for about the past 20 years (about coinciding with the development of ATVs), it has been 2-point only. The reason is that it is open Sage Brush country, with relatively easy travel for ATVs, and for hunting season, you have 100's of ATVs in every area, buzzing around, chasing deer, and shooting every forked horn, before he gets done nursing.

Ban the ATVs during hunting season, and I would have trophy mule deer hunting in 30 minutes from my house.

 

[BuzzH]

DG, I'm in with Ithaca, Gunner, and Pointer, its not about my hunts, its about the resource damage.

They degrade habitat by destruction and/or by disrupting wildlife habitat and security.

The areas that animals have to get into to get away from the ATV brigade is ridiculous. Take a good look at the way machines are built and designed these days...they arent designed for staying on trails, and thats a fact.

The minority of riders are illegal...sure, I believe that.

 

[BuzzH]

CJ, I'll tell you where law enforcement is...

They dont exist because Federal and State budgets are continually being axed. The simple-minded public (tax-payers/license buyers) seem to think that the FS, Game and Fish, etc. are over-staffed and over-funded.

Therefore, you have situations like that on the Medicine Bow NF where theres one LEO that covers the entire Med. Bow and the Thunder Basin National Grasslands. Put in perspective thats about like 5 cops trying to cover Phoenix.

So, to answer your question, I'm sure they (the various agencies) would like to hire and have several LEO's on full time, but then people like you, would bitch that all their "tax dollars" were being wasted on Federal/State salaries for LEO's to "ride around in a truck all day." When Pointer asked specifically if you thought the various agencies were under-funded you said, "A big Hell No! [overfunded maybee]".

Yet, its budget constraints that keep the various agencies from hiring more LEO's.

Maybe you need to rethink a few things?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-16-2003 07:21: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

The BLM Salt Lake Field Office has two full-time LEOs to 'keep the peace' on 3.2 MILLION acres of land! That is the problem with existing laws, just too few people to enforce them. Add into that, how many tickets are thrown out by local judges and it's even worse. One 2 of 31 tickets issued in a small area of UT over Mem Day Weekend were upheld.

 

[dgibson]

Finally...some straight answers!

Ithaca, you make a good point about the trailbreaking...the only way to reliably pull that off is to document every single existing trail and then forbid any more. A tall order, to be sure.

Enforcement seems to be the number one problem. You can't get the community to police themselves, and the LEO's don't have enough manpower to make a dent. Even if they had the manpower, they'd almost have to resort to using ATVs of their own to run down the perpetrators....Geez, what a barrel of fish hooks.

One LEO for all of Medicine Bow & Thunder Basin...wow.

 

[cjcj]

If there are so many guy`s on ATV`s, breaking "existing" law`s then i have to ask Where in the hell is "LAW" enforcment? wouldn`t they make a fortune "fining" these assholes?

 

[Hangar18]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ithaca 37:
Hanger, The problem with the Off Highway Conservation Council and all the rest of the organizations that claim to be trying to educate everyone is that nothing they do is working. The problems with ATVs get worse every year. If those organizations were serious they'd be pushing for more severe penalties. How many snowmobile clubs you ever seen that lobby for tougher penalties for snowmobilers breaking the law?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> These are two completely different topics - ATVs and Snowmobiles. For snowmobiles, a Wilderness violation is a $5000 fine plus...I posted in another thread the penalties for speeding and off-trail riding in Yellowstone. Environmentally, tracks in snow melt in the spring, and riders clean up their riding areas in the summer and fall.

When you say organizations "Claim to be trying to educate everyone" are you saying they really aren't? You are looking at two factions of people here. First, those that join clubs are interested in the sport for more than just grabbing throttle. They are in it for the family time, the comraderie, the fun, the challenge, the sheer pleasure of being out in it (if you can call it that) They are the ones that you do not have to worry about. And don't make generalizations about how few they may be vs. the other 'outlaw riders' because you have no idea unless you have membership numbers for all OHV clubs in the US and Canada.

AGAIN - I am not defending those that abuse the privilage, they are motorized recreation's worst enemy. In a perfect world, penalties would be harsh enough to deter the behavior. That is the purpose of penalties, right?

 

[cjcj]

Once again Buzz you are "wrong" if there are so many ATV law breakers, the fines could [offset] and pay for the enforcment but you have to have a "plan" to do that, but the "overfunded" and "overstaffed" paperpushers can`t seem to do anything unless they can dip into a never ending public "pocketbook" and that is a BIG FACT! and you know it , just look at all of the states that are in debt up to their ass, would a "private company" survive/ or would a family houshold survive with all that debt that is a BIG NO.

 

[1_pointer]

CJ- Would a private company give privledges for grazing, mining, logging etc at WAY below market value or low enough to the point they are taking a monetary loss? What would all the ranchers (and others making a profit off a public owned resource) do if they had to pay $10/AUM from their neighbor rather than the $1.35/AUM the BLM is charging this year? For the enforcement you'd also have to have much of that money ahead of time so as to get the ball rolling. But, that's not the only problem. We also need people to inventory the existing trails/roads so that it can be known what is there and thus what is legal and illegal to travel upon. Were all the trails/roads you rode in So. UT officially recognized and thus legally open to ATV traffic? You nor the local LEO/agency probably know that!

 

[cjcj]

That is exactly my point, the government is "poorly" run as an organization, that includes everything they run. Do they have any problems with ATV on "huge private" ranches? it is to easy to "throw" more taxpayer money at the problem, rather than get efficiant, and thats "generaly" what Government does.