Corner crossing SCOTUS appeal

[El Jason]

I would, and without a second thought. Makes no difference if there's boot tracks in the snow, mud, whatever. The courts are going to look at what a reasonable person would do in that situation, snow or not. If the best tool you have is 5-10 foot accuracy, the landowner has nothing better to prove you're wrong. Pictures in the snow mean zero.

I would also bet a vast majority of law enforcement and County Attorneys are going to tell the landowners to pound sand if they try to ticket people for using GPS's at unmarked corners.

I wouldn’t do it without a corner pin as well, but Buzz is correct. The margin of error sword cuts both ways. Remember, it is incumbent upon the state to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt the defendant DID trespass while hunting.

This isn’t “they most likely did because of margin of error”. Absent a corner pin, the only way this is happening is to do an official survey, locate the pin, and compare that to any memorialized footprints.

Honestly, if I was a juror and someone used GPS technology to cross an unmarked corner, I’d be pretty hard pressed to remotely consider it a trespass.

 

[Gulf of America]

OK side question, because a piece of rebar barely sticking up isn't easy to see and very likely could require a metal detector to find - how does one avoid accidentally trespassing trying to locate the marker? I'm imagining this in eastern MT breaksy country where there isn't a fence or anything on the property line and it seems like I'd be more likely to trespass trying to find a marker than I would just crossing at what my GPS told me was a corner.

 

[MTGomer]

OK side question, because a piece of rebar barely sticking up isn't easy to see and very likely could require a metal detector to find - how does one avoid accidentally trespassing trying to locate the marker? I'm imagining this in eastern MT breaksy country where there isn't a fence or anything on the property line and it seems like I'd be more likely to trespass trying to find a marker than I would just crossing at what my GPS told me was a corner.

A lot of corners in eastern MT look like this:






I added the T posts and ribbons.

These sections hadn’t been surveyed since the GLO in 1886.

 

[golfer]

A lot of corners in eastern MT look like this:
View attachment 389951
View attachment 389952View attachment 389953View attachment 389954
View attachment 389955View attachment 389956
View attachment 389957View attachment 389958View attachment 389959


I added the T posts and ribbons.

These sections hadn’t been surveyed since the GLO in 1886.

I think this is another great point. Majority of individuals are looking for a BC or some sort of plastic cap with PLS registration number on it. I’d venture to bet most have no idea what they are looking for on those stones.

 

[Elky Welky]

Remember, it is incumbent upon the state to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt the defendant DID trespass while hunting.

And don't forget that even if the State proves it, the jury still gets to decide if its a conviction, and it only takes one to disagree. I see these cases being won in jury selection long before the reading of the verdict.

 

[Gulf of America]

A lot of corners in eastern MT look like this:

These sections hadn’t been surveyed since the GLO in 1886.

Are survey notes/descriptions of markers from historic surveys available to the public on like an online repository? Or are they mostly non-digitized records stored in county offices?

 

[golfer]

Are survey notes/descriptions of markers from historic surveys available to the public on like an online repository? Or are they mostly non-digitized records stored in county offices?

Library: Survey Notes and Plats | Bureau of Land Management

Survey Notes, Plats, and Land Records Information Through the links below, find federal land records from across the country, to include historical documents to current interactive mapping tools. Mineral & Land Records System (MLRS) Mineral & Land Records System (MLRS),provides a geospatially...

www.blm.gov

 

[Gulf of America]

What about forest service and DNRC land?

 

[MTGomer]

Are survey notes/descriptions of markers from historic surveys available to the public on like an online repository? Or are they mostly non-digitized records stored in county offices?

If they are not on glorecords.BLM.gov email the regional BLM office and request them.

They’ll send you the whole damn township and then you have to sort through the chicken scratch for the sections you want.

 

[MTGomer]

What about forest service and DNRC land?

For getting the original notes, it doesn’t matter who the modern day land owner is, it was all surveyed by the GLO. BLM is the holder of the records.

 

[Hem]

I have a corner that has four fences coming together. One property is a bma. The other three private. The property diagnol from the bma i sometimes get permission to hunt.
The other two vehemently denied me via phone call. The fences are a bitch of barbwire. Guess I should investigate for a pin, or dont bother? Not certain which side i might partially stray over trying to climb over. Or is climbing over a bad idea? Nice to figure this out, saves me four miles of walking otherwise
Any thoughts, yay or nay?

 

[Dsnow9]

I have a corner that has four fences coming together. One property is a bma. The other three private. The property diagnol from the bma i sometimes get permission to hunt.
The other two vehemently denied me via phone call. The fences are a bitch of barbwire. Guess I should investigate for a pin, or dont bother? Not certain which side i might partially stray over trying to climb over. Or is climbing over a bad idea? Nice to figure this out, saves me four miles of walking otherwise
Any thoughts, yay or nay?

An a frame ladder

 

[antlerradar]

And don't forget that even if the State proves it, the jury still gets to decide if its a conviction, and it only takes one to disagree. I see these cases being won in jury selection long before the reading of the verdict.

Or lost, Thinking of many Eastern Mt counties.

 

[birdseye]

We won, or should I say that the Mo' 4, BHA and R. Semerad did the heavy lifting and ass kicking for all of us. Use a reasonable approach to an unmarked corner. The fish cops use the exact same OnX program that you do. The landowner can't just arbitrarily pretend or wishcast where they think the corner should be and go crying to the twig pigs....... and they have the option to pony up for a survey to erect a monument, if they feel it's needed. Yes, it'd be great if the Dept of Interior would get involved

Or, like Buzz said, be your own worst enemy, cry to yourself "oh, better not"... hide under your bed or beneath the skirts of a forum moderator. Chicken shits will be chicken shits so the more of you that are afraid to corner cross to access land that you already own, stay home. It's too scary out there anyway for those afraid of your own shadow. The less of you wanna-be's out there will make mine and many others outdoor experiences that much better.

 

[JM77]

This has become an incredible thread to read. It seems like a bunch of you are more scared to take back your public land than before Brad Cape called me asking advise on whether or not to pay the bond and go home or put up a fight.

That's fine. I'm not scared to access public lands with a now legal method, neither are my kids or grandkids. Now maybe some of you Montana boys will grow some hair on those nuts and take back that public land in your state!

 

[BuzzH]

^thats the reason for contributing money, time and effort into corner crossing.

 

[EastTNHunter]

I hunted in WY earlier this month. Asked the GW about any areas that I see on OnX that may be confusing or contested by adjacent landowners. He told me very clearly that he used OnX and that is what he would use for any disputes or complaints. Said it is the most accurate thing to use. YMMV

 

[R.K.]

I have a couple questions:

1- I seem to recall a digital mapping service from time ago that listed all the marked and unmarked corners of public parcels across the west- might’ve just been BLM. Does anyone know of anything like that?

2- if I approach a corner where it would be legal to corner cross but it has a fence intersection, what would be the best way to cross that fence? Try to climb over right at the corner post if it falls on the monument? Go over/under the wire a few feet away? Fund a bunch of ladders to put over these common corner posts to avoid future disputes?

 

[TOGIE]

Eshelman’s are honestly the minority out there. Not only is the precedent solidly on our side the majority of landowners probably arent willing to have costly legal civil tangles in the many other nuanced situations being discussed, especially given the likely odds of them not going in their favor.

When you ask wardens in Wyo about corner crossing they’ll almost all, verbatim, say “we don’t touch it.” The landowners ammo is dwindled down more than ever before.

I’m in agreement. We gotta exercise this and normalize it. I already have this fall and I’ll be in Wyoming again in just over a week. Pin or no pin, I will be crossing in my “A” spot, unless the animal I’m looking for isn’t found there.

 

[BuzzH]

I have a couple questions:

1- I seem to recall a digital mapping service from time ago that listed all the marked and unmarked corners of public parcels across the west- might’ve just been BLM. Does anyone know of anything like that?

2- if I approach a corner where it would be legal to corner cross but it has a fence intersection, what would be the best way to cross that fence? Try to climb over right at the corner post if it falls on the monument? Go over/under the wire a few feet away? Fund a bunch of ladders to put over these common corner posts to avoid future disputes?

1-can't help.
2-its illegal to block a corner under the UIA. Once again, what would be a reasonable thing a person would do in that situation? If you find such a corner get in touch with me and I'll reach out to Ryan. He specifically wants to know about situations like that.