60% Resident increase?

[jlmatthew]

Then you should be more than happy in Colorado.

Montana is not the paradise you make it sound like, and that's a fact...and getting worse all the time.

Waging war on elk with 190K general elk tags, 11 week seasons, shoulder seasons from Aug-Feb. 15...that has consequences. So does pounding deer for the same 11 weeks, including the entire month of November.

Try that in Colorado and see what you have left in a few years...

Randy shoots a lot of animals in Montana, and much nicer than anything he bags here save his bull from 61 which takes years to draw. And he sure pushes the Whitetail hunting in Montana. Says if guys back east knew what the whitetail hunting was like in Montana they'd be coming out in droves. Is he lying? Are you Randy if you read this?

Why are you so agitated? Is it because we want opportunities like other states have? You never answer my question if you would like the same exact system in Wyoming, why is that?

 

[JohnCushman]

Fwagner...

If your reading comprehension is so poor that you couldn't see where I said in just about every post I wrote that I support a fee increase, and just about every resident said they'd support a fee increase, then I don't know what else to say. If your best rebuttal is 'stop bitching and pay up', that's not much of a debate or exchange of ideas. So, I'm going to stop arguing with you before I revert back to my old self and piss Fin off. If you choose to continue to hump my leg, then that's on you. Have a nice day.

 

[BuzzH]

Randy shoots a lot of animals in Montana, and much nicer than anything he bags here save his bull from 61 which takes years to draw. And he sure pushes the Whitetail hunting in Montana. Says if guys back east knew what the whitetail hunting was like in Montana they'd be coming out in droves. Is he lying? Are you Randy if you read this?

Why are you so agitated? Is it because we want opportunities like other states have? You never answer my question if you would like the same exact system in Wyoming, why is that?

Because you haven't asked a question.

I'm not agitated at all, you just don't understand what you're asking for with a season structure like Montana's in Colorado. It wont work, just like its not working in Montana.

You honestly believe OTC tags in Colorado for resident deer and elk in all but a handful of units, with 11 week seasons, including during the rut for deer, is going to sustain itself?

If you do, its obvious you've been hitting the new stores in Colorado...hard.

For the record, Wyoming general rifle areas have pretty short seasons (11-14 days), so do general deer areas. Plus, there are very few mule deer rut hunts here either and the rifle seasons are pretty short as well (most 5-14 days).

So, you're whining about the lack of opportunity in Colorado on deer and elk, but they aren't much better in Wyoming. Wyoming management is way closer to CO than MT...maybe more restrictive than both in regard to deer, in particular the timing of the hunts. Hunting mule deer in early October is about the most difficult time of the year to hunt them. Its way better earlier and later.

The bulls Randy has taken lately in Montana are mostly all from Limited areas that require a special permit...as to whitetails, they can withstand a lot more pressure than mule deer. Since CO doesn't have nearly the wide-spread number of W-tails, you're comparing apples and aardvarks...but compare away.

Ask Randy how many bulls he's taken in the last 10 years in a general unit in Montana...or better yet, ask Greenhorn how many he's taken the last 4-5 years in general units in Montana.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[jlmatthew]

Buzz, thanks for the clarification concerning Wyoming, as for me shopping at the new stores, never tried the stuff.

Never hunted Montana so I cant argue with you about the elk hunting, just know what my buddies up there think of it and they're pretty happy, especially the one who moved there from here. As for deer, I wish the whitetails here would spread faster. Shot a doe on the plain last year and that was a fun hunt! Sneaky little things!

If I'm whining about anything in Colorado its access to deer tags. Do I think Colorado could do resident OTC deer tags, yep for the most part. Most residents I see don't hunt hard or long and wouldn't take advantage of them. Do I think hunting deer until Thanksgiving is unrealistic, yes to that, at least for mule deer. But if I could hunt the seasons as they are now it would be pretty darn nice. Meaning my tag would be good for archery , muzzy and rifle or at least one of 2nd or 3rd rifle seasons (or 2 out of the 3 methods). And move the seasons up a week or two if they feel too many deer would be available in November.


You guys in WY can hunt archery and rifle right on the same tag right or by buying a archery stamp or something like that? just asking because I don't know for sure.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Buzz, thanks for the clarification concerning Wyoming, as for me shopping at the new stores, never tried the stuff.

You guys in WY can hunt archery and rifle right on the same tag right or by buying a archery stamp or something like that? just asking because I don't know for sure.

Yes we can and its freakin awesome! You should move here, you will love it.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Buzz I'm trying to follow your argument; are saying that you don't like Montana's system because an over harvest has been going on and thus now it is too difficult to harvest animals there? Therefore what you want is for there to be more restrictive regulations so that the population will increase and thus make harvests more successful?

I only lived there for 3 years so I have no idea what it was like and will defer to your experience, but it certainly is easier to kill and elk in Montana than Colorado simply because of the time you can be in the field basically from July - Feb with the shoulder seasons.

Obviously, there are a finite number of animals that can be harvested and what seems like a infinite amount of people who want to harvest them. Therefore you have to control by season length, time (rut/postrut/prerut), tag cost, and accessibility via vehicle. All states play with these variables to arrive at what they have determined (hopefully scientifically) is an acceptable harvest. Bottom line if you have 100 and 10 elk to kill 90 people are going home empty handed but you can massage the variables so that at least you are going home with great memories and a cool experience in the woods even though you got skunked.

What I think other CO residents at this page are advocating and what I certainly am, is that we would prefer if the calculus was done differently so that we could spend more time in the woods, knowing full well that this means more expensive resident tags, restrictions on vehicles, and potentially less OTC opportunities.

Resident versus Non-Resident hunting strategies are very different, nonresidents, because of the expense and travel involved, do all their hunting in one continuous block lets say 5-7 days in a row. Residents typically want to hunt the weekends and save their vacation days so that they can travel to somewhere more exotic to hunt, they only would hunt 7 days in they got to spread it out over 3-4 weeks. This applies to midwest/east guys as well, I'm sure these hunt whitetails every weekend and then head out to CO for a week. Therefore the length of season typically effects residents to a greater extent than non-residents even though both are spending the same time in the woods. All I'm trying to show here is that each group has different priorities, and different things that make or break the hunt for them, not that residents only hunt on weekends or that non residents only come out once.

Buzz you clearly are well knowledged about these matters and have highlighted potentially problematic issues in Wyoming, I'm a little surprised your gunning at CO residents instead of just saying hey this is whats my experience has been like in Wyoming with our system here are issues with it and CO would be better served with x/y/z.


Buzz if you were western wildlife manager for a day what would your system look like in each state and why?

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, thanks for the clarification concerning Wyoming, as for me shopping at the new stores, never tried the stuff.

Never hunted Montana so I cant argue with you about the elk hunting, just know what my buddies up there think of it and they're pretty happy, especially the one who moved there from here. As for deer, I wish the whitetails here would spread faster. Shot a doe on the plain last year and that was a fun hunt! Sneaky little things!

If I'm whining about anything in Colorado its access to deer tags. Do I think Colorado could do resident OTC deer tags, yep for the most part. Most residents I see don't hunt hard or long and wouldn't take advantage of them. Do I think hunting deer until Thanksgiving is unrealistic, yes to that, at least for mule deer. But if I could hunt the seasons as they are now it would be pretty darn nice. Meaning my tag would be good for archery , muzzy and rifle or at least one of 2nd or 3rd rifle seasons (or 2 out of the 3 methods). And move the seasons up a week or two if they feel too many deer would be available in November.


You guys in WY can hunt archery and rifle right on the same tag right or by buying a archery stamp or something like that? just asking because I don't know for sure.

Do what you need to.

Me, I'm more of a "take care of the resource first" type of guy.

I never put the health of the resource over the "needs" or "wants" of hunters, in particular if those type of wants start doing damage.

From everything I know, Montana is severely damaging their elk and deer populations. Its all about management, or lack of, in the case of Montana.

If you feel its necessary to increase opportunity at the expense of your own resources in Colorado...blast away. Not my pig, not my farm...

I hunt lots of States, but since I've hunted Montana for nearly 40 years, my direct family for the last century +, and I was born there, I still feel an obligation to care about wildlife resources there. Not exactly sure why, since the MTFWP and its "leadership" have essentially not changed a thing since 1957 in regard to management.

 

[JohnCushman]

fwagner...if you can't say what you need to in the open forum, then you're definitely NOT welcome to PM me...

Here is the PM he didn't have the balls enough to say publicly...

"The "debate" lies in you calling us NR hunters "whiners" for bitching about the price increases we shoulder every year, and yes they are bullshit. If words on a thread make you revert to "the old you"...grow up."

Dude, like I said...stop humping my leg

 

[BuzzH]

wlm1313,

What good does all that "opportunity" mean in Montana, when you cant find an elk on public land to even shoot?

You know how many days I've rifle hunted elk in Wyoming when I couldn't have shot at least one legal elk (in range, safety off, only one move left) in a general area?

Not one...

When was the last time you saw over 50 bulls in 3 mornings, during an open season, on public land, most of them 6 points in a LQ area in Montana?

Show me an area in Montana that has bull to cow ratio's greater than 40+bulls per 100 cows (MINIMUM number in areas managed under trophy management here). Most of the trophy managed areas in Wyoming are 50-65 bulls per 100 cows POST harvest.

You're right, you don't have anything to compare to...unfortunately, I do.

BTW, its not that I cant still kill a bull in Montana every year, its just that I wont do it when:

1. The populations don't justify it.
2. The FWP has ZERO management
3. The bull to cow ratio's are in the single digits
4. According to the FWP's own data they're killing every legal bull, each year, in the unit I hunt

I don't need an elk that bad and the last few bull elk I killed in Montana, I felt guilty for pulling the trigger, because I know its not sustainable or right.

Therefore, your ex- FWP Director got my last elk tag stapled to a shitty-gram explaining why I'll never buy another elk tag there.

Good luck with your opportunity to hunt elk for 6 months...sad you need that long to find one.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So Buzz how do you think it could be done better? I'm not trying to be snarky... genuinely want to know what a better system would look like in Montana or CO in your opinion, shorter seasons, less tags, more limited units?


Also what region in Montana do you hunt, your experience just doesn't seem to jive with mine I hunted in Region 3 for elk exclusively I had no problem walking in on the first day of rifle season and killing a bull. I don't think I went elk hunting 1 day and didn't see an elk or at least sign and I'm probably as green as they come to elk hunting and I wasn't even driving more than 25 min out of Bozeman.

 

[BuzzH]

So Buzz how do you think it could be done better? I'm not trying to be snarky... genuinely want to know what a better system would look like in Montana or CO in your opinion, shorter seasons, less tags, more limited units?


Also what region in Montana do you hunt, your experience just doesn't seem to jive with mine I hunted in Region 3 for elk exclusively I had no problem walking in on the first day of rifle season and killing a bull. I don't think I went elk hunting 1 day and didn't see an elk or at least sign and I'm probably as green as they come to elk hunting and I wasn't even driving more than 25 min out of Bozeman.

Increase opportunity...say, 10-11 month elk seasons would be a good start. Wildlife biology, and the scientific management of same, hasn't mattered in Montana for a long, long time.

The only way management will change, or in the case of Montana START, is if we get to rock bottom...we're headed there one way or another. Many areas already are, and have been for a long time.

IMO/E, until the dimmest bulb on the Christmas tree finally see's what's going on, nothing will change. No use pretending to care when its a race to the bottom.

Get to killing off what's left on the private, when that happens, its all over. The legislature, landowners, MTFWP and opportunity hunters can feel satisfied.

Everything is working perfectly.

 

[fwagner]

fwagner...if you can't say what you need to in the open forum, then you're definitely NOT welcome to PM me...

Here is the PM he didn't have the balls enough to say publicly...

"The "debate" lies in you calling us NR hunters "whiners" for bitching about the price increases we shoulder every year, and yes they are bullshit. If words on a thread make you revert to "the old you"...grow up."

Dude, like I said...stop humping my leg

I'll bring it out in the open all day....didn't think the forum needed two people going back and forth but that's fine. You are obviously a short sighted individual only worried about your pocket book while accusing NR of "whining". Grow up. The only post where you agreed to any increase is in a situation where it benefited resident hunters. But looking back at the last 8 years I have gone elk hunting residents have put the additional expenses on the backs of NR, without any of the "benefits" you would need in order to accept the increase.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Increase opportunity...say, 10-11 month elk seasons would be a good start. Wildlife biology, and the scientific management of same, hasn't mattered in Montana for a long, long time.

The only way management will change is if we get to rock bottom...we're headed there one way or another.

IMO/E, until the dimmest bulb on the Christmas tree finally see's what's going on, nothing will change. No use pretending to care when its a race to the bottom.

Get to killing off what's left on the private, when that happens, its all over. The legislature, landowners, MTFWP and opportunity hunters can feel satisfied.

Everything is working perfectly.

Neat, thanks for the productive discourse.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah, I know the truth about Montana elk and deer management is tough to accept...reality bites sometimes.

I've wasted too much time giving a shit, when the MTFWP, Landowners, greedy hunters/outfitters, and legislature obviously don't.

I've fought that battle long enough. My last effort is to remove myself from the clustershag of elk mismanagement in Montana. I refuse to pay the department another dime, for nothing to change.

Time to hit rock bottom, and I say the quicker the better.

BTW, what possible good is it going to do suggest something that is NOT going to happen, until we get to rock bottom and people wake up?

Everyone knows what the problems are, and how to fix it, trouble is the department, politics, and hunting public aren't willing to do it.

So, enjoy a state with perhaps the best elk potential in the country and 100K elk, or less, on the landscape, a majority on private...its a joke.

But, like I said, I don't care anymore...why should I, nobody else does.

 

[LuketheDog]

Increase opportunity...say, 10-11 month elk seasons would be a good start. Wildlife biology, and the scientific management of same, hasn't mattered in Montana for a long, long time.

The only way management will change, or in the case of Montana START, is if we get to rock bottom...we're headed there one way or another. Many areas already are, and have been for a long time.

IMO/E, until the dimmest bulb on the Christmas tree finally see's what's going on, nothing will change. No use pretending to care when its a race to the bottom.

Get to killing off what's left on the private, when that happens, its all over. The legislature, landowners, MTFWP and opportunity hunters can feel satisfied.

Everything is working perfectly.

Maybe you ought to just give up hunting BuzzH, then there'd be less pressure on them deer and elk! I hear tennis is nice...

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Well Buzz, I'm young I'm looking through the front windshield at the fight not the back and I would love to learn, so if you are ever so inclined I would love to engage in a conversation about what works, what doesn't and why. Feel free to PM me about it if you don't want your ideas to get nit picked by the masses.

I just started plowing through "Game Management" by Leopold and if you have other resources that are valuable would love to dive into those as well.

I'm hoping to be hitting the woods for the next 40 years so I want to make sure we don't hit rock bottom.

 

[BuzzH]

Maybe you ought to just give up hunting BuzzH, then there'd be less pressure on them deer and elk! I hear tennis is nice...

I did that in Montana...I no longer buy elk tags there, even though they're half price for me as NR native.

I can shoot 3 elk every year in Wyoming and not have to feel like I just shot the last one.

 

[JohnCushman]

Buzz... What is Wyoming doing that's better than what Colorado is doing for the animals and hunting in general? Colorado claims to be doing seasons and limits according to what there is available, but Wyoming seems to have more animals with a pretty much open season where you can hunt archery and rifle. I think if we understood this better the price increase would be easier to swallow.

 

[BuzzH]

Well Buzz, I'm young I'm looking through the front windshield at the fight not the back and I would love to learn, so if you are ever so inclined I would love to engage in a conversation about what works, what doesn't and why. Feel free to PM me about it if you don't want your ideas to get nit picked by the masses.

I just started plowing through "Game Management" by Leopold and if you have other resources that are valuable would love to dive into those as well.

I'm hoping to be hitting the woods for the next 40 years so I want to make sure we don't hit rock bottom.

Try plowing through the MTFWP population objectives, population estimates, harvest statistics in regions 1 and 2.

Tell me how they're justifying 11 weeks of OTC elk hunting and shoulder seasons.

Tell me how its OK to have single digit bull to cow ratio's.

Tell me how its OK to kill every available bull each year according to their numbers.

Tell me how its OK to fly the exact same patterns for elk population estimates, to keep things "consistent".

Tell me how its OK that elk numbers are so low in many areas of region 1 that they don't bother wasting flight time anymore...but still have unlimited OTC 11 week seasons.

Tell me how its OK to think killing 2 or 3 bulls in the entire fish creek drainage West of Missoula is OK, and justify an 11 week season.

For you to have an idea of what I'm talking about, you need to look at that stuff yourself.

This same crap has been going on a long time, I've had conversations with people way up the food-chain with MTFWP...they don't care, they make excuses, and they deny THEIR data...

How do you even try to change that?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Buzz trying to check this stuff out... so I haven't been to that part of MT but I think fish creek is Unit 202 in which 53 Bulls were killed and the state says is at objective with 296 elk observed. Region 1 definitely seems to be under objective on average but they only let you get brow-tined bulls so that helps with spike recruitment so they are trying to get better age class, right or am I missing the mark??