U.S. supreme Court case - Big decision ahead

[BuzzH]

Subsistence hunting is hardly the easiest way to make dinner.

Correct and why a vast majority of tribal and non-tribal folks don't do so, and why this issue probably isn't one.

 

[antlerradar]

I can think of about 7,000 easier ways to make money than selling elk meat...

They won't be selling most the meat, They will be selling the antlers and maybe some of the meat.
There are people on the Cheyenne right now that are market hunting antlers. I doubt the Crow is any different.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

They won't be selling the meat, They will be selling the antlers mostly and may be some of the meat.
There are people on the Cheyenne right now that are market hunting antlers. I doubt the Crow is any different.

it's not likely the Crows will be any different from the Cheyennes. This directly contributes to the difficulty of claiming a conservation necessity. If bull/cow ratios are great, and the age structure of the bulls is high, then it's pretty tough to claim a conservation necessity to the protect the integrity of the population UNLESS they kill enough to drop the bull/cow ratio to an unhealthy point. If you can't kill enough elk, and are issuing multiple tags a year to resident hunters, how can you say there aren't enough elk for the Crows to exercise their treaty right to hunt?

It's a hot button for state licensed hunters though, because it directly impacts units they invest time and points into as idahohuntr previously pointed out It's not uncommon for Nez Perce tribal hunters to whack a bighorn sheep along the northern reaches of Hell's Canyon, or a big bull off of Craig Mountain. I honestly think if it was does, cows, small bucks, etc., a lot of folks wouldn't give two shits. But when they see a cranker velvet bull in the back of a pickup, shot with a rifle in August, they are incensed.

 

[3855WIN]

Would be interesting to see some WY poaching stats... seems like even with this ruling the number of animals killed by tribe members off the rez will be dwarfed by the number of white poachers running around up there.

Good point. But white hunters didn’t send a case to the SC to defend a man who left an animal to rot. No problem with the Crow Tribe Win. Big problem with their representative leaving an animal to rot. I’m sure they have many fine hunters in their Tribe that anyone would enjoy hunting with. Bad look for this one to get a national stage.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

@3855WIN Agreed, I was more referring to resource impact.

 

[Irrelevant]

But when they see a cranker bull in the back of a pickup, shot with a rifle in August, they are incensed.

Maybe. I would say when people see three bulls pile in their front yard rotting in the sun... that gets people hot, and taints the public perspective in a negative way. I'll admit that has likely tainted my perspective. That and seeing wild steelhead on a ESA listed river for sale in the back of a tribal pickup. While I can't say the crow do that, they clearly will kill a bull and just take the backstraps (per the lower court transcript).

 

[Sytes]

I thought I would try to start to put some facts and some history into this discussion. While I am no historian, I did grow up on the Crow Res and as such I feel some obligation to try and at least insert some background information into this thread.

I'll start here - while there are parallels with other tribes - and the SCOTUS does use previous court decisions to support their current decision - each tribe is it's own entity. This makes any correlations or hypothetical arguments very much moot and really muddies the water. I would encourage folks posting on this thread to really just focus on this one court decision.

I thought it would be useful to show first the historical boundaries of the Crow Reservation (image from LBHC for credit).



The original Crow Agency was east of Livingston, then moved south of Absarokee, then to present day Crow Agency. As you can see, the reservation boundary changed greatly over a 50 year span. I don't know the source of why the boundary moved at those certain times - maybe someone else on here has that knowledge.

I'll try to pitch into the thread - but I think we do have an opportunity to have a worthwhile discussion over this issue - if we can stay focused. We are trying to examine 1 small piece of a large treaty - and even a simple example like "I got a speeding ticket driving through a res once" has no bearing on the current issue and can quickly derail this thread (as we know).

This is a valued post. We all have our opinions about this, that and the craters on the moon though to review/research information you share would be a great value. Thanks for posting up and I look forward to reading more as you present your direct perspective.

 

[dcreiss]

Are they allowed to hunt Wyoming Wilderness with out a guide? Being from a Sovereign Nation does not make them a resident of any one state, let alone Wyoming.

Wyoming could try and press charges but per the SCOTUS decision the case would likely be dismissed as tribal hunting rights for the Crow tribe control across state jurisdiction within their recognized treaty hunting lands including Wyoming regulation upon non-resident state licensed hunters within wilderness areas.

 

[antlerradar]

I am wondering how this is going to effect enforcement. Crow's can hunt, Cheyenne's can not. Are the poor wardens in the field going to have to say " show me your papers" every time they encounter a native in the field? Are the Crow going to be required to carry proof of tribal membership when hunting?

 

[VikingsGuy]

I am wondering how this is going to effect enforcement. Crow's can hunt, Cheyenne's can not. Are the poor wardens in the field going to have to say " show me your papers" every time they encounter a native in the field? Are the Crow going to be required to carry proof of tribal membership when hunting?

I would guess if they could show valid tribe membership docs they would get a pass, if not they would get a ticket and then have to bring proof of membership to court as a defense- fairly simple.

 

[antlerradar]

Are they allowed to hunt Wyoming Wilderness with out a guide? Being from a Sovereign Nation does not make them a resident of any one state, let alone Wyoming.

This is what is going to get interesting. Can the Crows claim Sovereign Nation status when you want benefits like treaty rights and exemptions form state taxes and then claim to be residents of a state when you want state benefits like Residents hunting licencees, State assistance and voting? Maybe the courts have already decided this, if not this ruling is likely to bring this to a head quicker and that is when the poop hits the fan.

 

[antlerradar]

I would guess if they could show valid tribe membership docs they would get a pass, if not they would get a ticket and then have to bring proof of membership to court as a defense- fairly simple.

Your are likely right. What a pain in the rear for our underpaid game wardens.
I wonder what those documents will be. Something official or will it be papers that any one can make on a copy machine.

 

[npaden]

They routinely stop and ask regular white folks to show their hunting license, etc. It really wouldn't be much different. With a 25% minimum to be a tribal member you aren't going to be looking at the color of one's skin before they decide to stop and check you out. (Hopefully).

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

With a 25% minimum to be a tribal member you aren't going to be looking at the color of one's skin before they decide to stop and check you out.

Lol genetic expression is weird... my wife doesn't look particularly native my BIL does, both are 50% from their mother.

 

[3855WIN]

They routinely stop and ask regular white folks to show their hunting license, etc. It really wouldn't be much different. With a 25% minimum to be a tribal member you aren't going to be looking at the color of one's skin before they decide to stop and check you out. (Hopefully).

They’ll be looking at who’s hunting elk out of season.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

They’ll be looking at who’s hunting elk out of season.

I've always been really impressed by Wyoming's warden presence in the field. I've been checked every-time I hunt WY... in 4 years in MT the only time I ran into a warden was at bagel works. Colorado doesn't actually have wardens so far I have seen. 7 seasons in units across the state and the only time I've been checked was waterskiing at chatfield because we started 30 second into legal light.

 

[shootbrownelk]

This isn't the first decision like this. I believe Wisconsin has had similar ruling with respect to tribes fishing (and netting). I am not really familiar with what has happened since, but perhaps someone could describe what resulted and how it has panned out there. I believe there are parallels.

You mean SPEARING fish while the fish are spawning....not fishing.

 

[noharleyyet]

As Buzz said upstream, "you don't have to like it"

 

[MTGomer]

Lol genetic expression is weird... my wife doesn't look particularly native my BIL does, both are 50% from their mother.

It is very strange. I have a friend half Salish-Kootenai half Irish and other European ancestry. She has brown hair, light skin and freckles.
I know two enrolled Crow with blonde hair.
My mom looks quite native, a cousin of hers that’s an enrolled member does not. I don’t. My brother doesn’t. His daughter does, his son doesn’t. And we are not very native. Approximately 64x more so than natives like Elizabeth Warren, but not very native whatsoever.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

It is very strange. I have a friend half Salish-Kootenai half Irish and other European ancestry. She has brown hair, light skin and freckles.
I know two enrolled Crow with blonde hair.
My mom looks quite native, a cousin of hers that’s an enrolled member does not. I don’t. My brother doesn’t. His daughter does, his son doesn’t. And we are not very native. Approximately 64x more so than natives like Elizabeth Warren, but not very native whatsoever.

Yeah my wife has blue eyes, and was blonde until age 10-12 now it's a light brown... neither her or her brother can drink milk without feeling like shit.