public land access via hopping a survey marker

[BuzzH]

Would have been better if you saw him go to jail...

I agree, I think hunters/campers/hikers/ need to take back their right to use public lands.

If that means making it off limits to EVERYONE then so be it. If I cant use it, neither should some welfare landowner who owns a herd of cows, sheep, or horses.

IMO, if a landowner denies access to public lands they should not be allowed to lease any public lands or utilize any public lands for any reason (hunting, fishing, camping, etc.).

Fair is fair.

As to corner jumping, it should be 100% legal and likely is if it were challenged in a high court.

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

When crossing a questionable corner, be sure to hover over the survey post and drop a loaf across the bounds of the private land to mark where not to step.

 

[Blue Yummies]

Greenhorn
I thought you were a landowner?
Is it legal to use a helicopter to spot animals?? I heard of guys shooting coyotes from airplanes.

 

[ManBearPig]

delete delete delete

 

[Blue Yummies]

Again you are right on top of things
See above....

 

[A-con]

I think it is legal, and some body with enough time and money to fight it all the way should test it and test it.
That being said, I talked with a Montana warden who said it was not legal, and he can and will issue tickets. Sometimes, what the letter of the law says and what local LE personal enforce are two different things.

 

[oleefish2]

Here is the laws for wyoming public assess for federal, state and private

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wy/information/docs.Par.1305.File.dat/publicaccess.pdf

 

[Oak]

From oleefish2's link:

What does the law say with regard to corner crossing?

There are no specific state or federal laws regarding corner crossings. Corner crossings in the checkerboard land pattern area or elsewhere are not considered legal public access.

Seems like contradictory statements there. How can there be no law against it, but it is not legal?

 

[Tom]

There's two kinds of law, statutary law and common law. Statutary law is the actual laws that are on the books. Common law is where law comes about from interpreting statutary law and it comes from the courts. Any lower court is supposed to follow all the statutary laws written down and all the upper courts interpretation of those laws written up in the higher courts cases, appeals, etc. are written up. That is the common law, how the higher courts interpret the statutory law. So, it could be not legal because some appelate or higher court interpreted the statutory law to be you can't cross their air space above the private land, since its close to their actual private land and they own it. Its common law, not a statutory law, but a written court interpretation of the statutory law. All the lower courts are supposed to follow the common law and the statutory law. Statutory law is actual written laws. Common law in actual court interpretations of statutory law and its called common law. Maybe some lawyer can improve this description, but that's my understanding of it.

 

[Oak]

I was just being difficult, Tom. But I would like to read any court cases from WY regarding corner jumping, if anyone is familiar with them.

 

[guppie9]

There's two kinds of law, statutary law and common law. Statutary law is the actual laws that are on the books. Common law is where law comes about from interpreting statutary law and it comes from the courts. Any lower court is supposed to follow all the statutary laws written down and all the upper courts interpretation of those laws written up in the higher courts cases, appeals, etc. are written up. That is the common law, how the higher courts interpret the statutory law. So, it could be not legal because some appelate or higher court interpreted the statutory law to be you can't cross their air space above the private land, since its close to their actual private land and they own it. Its common law, not a statutory law, but a written court interpretation of the statutory law. All the lower courts are supposed to follow the common law and the statutory law. Statutory law is actual written laws. Common law in actual court interpretations of statutory law and its called common law. Maybe some lawyer can improve this description, but that's my understanding of it.

My head hurts.

 

[Tom]

Here's the news article about the Douglas, WY hunter that came up in the google.com search.

Case could open public access

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By BILL LUCKETT
Star-Tribune capital bureau
Monday, April 12, 2004 12:00 AM MDT

CHEYENNE -- The recent acquittal of a Douglas man who had been charged with trespassing for "corner jumping" to get from one piece of public land to another could have far-reaching effects on sportsmen's access throughout the state.

"I don't rejoice over one of our officers losing in court, but for sportsmen certainly, this is news, you betcha," said Wyoming Game and Fish Department spokesman Jeff Obrecht.

At the very least, the Albany County case will likely prompt the department to review its long-standing assumption that corner jumping is illegal, said agency Wildlife Enforcement Coordinator Russ Pollard.

"I'm sure that we will revisit the issue, but I have no idea what the outcome's going to be, what direction we will get from our administration," Pollard said.

Corner jumping is the term officials used to describe stepping over the corner created where four sections of land meet in order to reach a cater-corner parcel of land without touching the other two parcels.

Albany County Circuit Judge Robert Castor's "not guilty" verdict in the case against Bill Kearney does not set a legal precedent on the issue, but it raises the possibility that public lands in Wyoming may be more accessible to the public than previously thought.

While hunting in Albany County on Sept. 23, Kearney stepped from one parcel of public land to another that meet at a corner where two pieces of private land also meet.

Using a Global Positioning System (GPS) device, Kearney found a surveyor's pin that marks the official corner of the land parcels, and he did not step in or physically touch the adjacent private lands when he stepped over the corner.

"I did this, and I was accosted by a landowner and a Game and Fish representative on public land," Kearney said. "They asked how I got there, and I told them, and they told me that was against the law in Wyoming. ... I couldn't believe that was true, because I never stepped on private land."

Nearly a month later, Kearney was cited for trespassing for the purpose of hunting, and he got the feeling that the landowner, Serge Delia, held some sway with state authorities.

"From my overall experience, it appeared to me that the Game and Fish was under a tremendous amount of pressure by this very wealthy hobby rancher to prosecute me for accessing thousands of acres of public land," Kearney said.

He said he decided to challenge the citation in court, because he didn't think he had broken the law. Castor agreed, and on March 24, after a bench trial, the judge found Kearney not guilty of trespassing.

"It's unfortunate that I had to waste a couple of days of elk hunting and my own money to see this through, but it was a matter of principle," Kearney said.

He said he spoke prior to trial with several people he knew in government, including Game and Fish officials, and their unanimous feedback was that what Kearney had done was prohibited.

Obrecht said that opinion has always been the conventional wisdom on corner jumping.

"In the sporting realm that I'm in, it was just kind of common knowledge or commonly accepted that corner jumping was off-limits," he said. "That was always pre-GPS, too."

But Kearney's attorney and the prosecutor could find no definitive answer in Wyoming case law to interpret whether corner jumping was deemed illegal.

"There's nothing specifically on this point," said the prosecutor, Deputy Albany County Attorney Torey Racines. "There's case law from other states, and there's arguments made on both sides as to what the law should be."

Kearney said Racines described as an "urban myth" the widely held assumption that corner jumping had been previously declared illegal.

In court documents, Racines noted that Wyoming law specifically grants landowners the ownership of the space above their lands, and even the U.S. Supreme Court grants landowners ownership of "at least as much of the space above the ground as they can occupy or use in connection with the land."

On the other hand, a recent Massachusetts Supreme Court ruling stated that there is "no place in the modern world" for the ancient civil trespass doctrine that "he who owns the soil owns upward unto heaven."

Pollard noted that Castor's decision is not binding in any other Wyoming county. Racines added that the judge did not even give a reason for his decision, which makes the basis for his finding unclear.

Racines said his agency will continue to review similar cases on a case-by-case basis rather than refuse to prosecute future cases that mirror the Kearney case.

Kearney, meanwhile, is left pondering what effects the case may have on public lands access and what the reactions of public lands agencies will be.

"I'm happy that I was cleared of it, but it's really unclear what this 'not guilty' verdict means," he said. "If this isn't binding to the state of Wyoming as it should be and it takes legislation to do it, I'd like to see somebody step up to the plate to do it."

 

[Oak]

I found an interesting nugget on the topic. SFW supported a law that specifically would ban "corner-jumping" in Wyoming:

Jim Magagna, Wyoming Stockgrower's Association, addressed 05 LSO 0323.W2. (Appendix 9) He testified that the criminal trespass statutes prohibit the crossing at corners of sections of public lands where the public lands are part of the checkerboard situation. Recent district court and attorney general rulings have interpreted game and fish laws to not prohibit such crossings while hunting and fishing. Mr. Magagna was proposing 05 LSO 323.W2 to prohibit crossing of public lands at points touching the boundaries of private lands.

Terry Cleveland, Director of Game and Fish and Scott Talbott, Game and Fish Department addressed the Committee. The Department supported the proposal. Mr. Talbott suggested that the language should be changed to state that no person shall "take wildlife", rather than "hunt, fish or trap". He also suggested that the statute be changed to reference private lands at all times, rather than private property.

Doug Cooper, rancher, spoke in support of the proposed legislation. He noted that many persons drive over private land and maintain they are not hunting and thus must be prosecuted under the criminal trespass statutes. It is difficult to prosecute under the criminal trespass statutes which require notification of the trespass. He noted precise identification of section corners is difficult.

Bob Wharff, executive director sportsmen for fish and wildlife, supported the draft. He did not advocate the closure of public lands, but wanted to ensure that the public was not misinformed regarding what can be done while hunting and fishing. He also did not wish to erode relationships between private landowners and the public.
The Committee took no action on the proposed bill draft.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2004/interim/trav/MINUTES/min1129.htm

 

[noharleyyet]

Sneakem could do it & still be legal.

 

[BuzzH]

Wow, thats a real shock that SFW and Bob Wharff would support a law banning corner jumping.

SFW is a joke.

 

[IDHunters]

Oak it looks like the Game & Fish Dept also supported the law. That is more concerning than SFW support.

The corner jumping law is stupid. Just as stupid as the guide requirement for wilderness areas for non-res hunters.

 

[Tom]

Here's what the Wyoming Public Access Guide says, that's olefish's link too:

Q What does the law say with regard to corner crossing?
There are no specific state or federal laws regarding corner crossings. Corner crossings in the checkerboard land pattern area or elsewhere are not considered legal public access.
QQ Q Do public lands in the checkerboard or in other intermingled land ownership areas have public access?
Public access to public lands is often limited in the checkerboard and in other public and private intermingled land ownership areas in Wyoming. If there is a public road or a right-of-way (easement) for public access through the checkerboard or intermingled land, then the public has legal access to the public land crossed by the public road.

Here's some Montana info. on it, this guy is a business law prof.,

Montana Private Land Issues
Published: Mar 17, 2007
Written by: Jerry Furniss

With private property comprising nearly 70% of land in Montana, private land becomes an important recreational consideration. ...

What is the access situation intermingled public and private (checkerboard) lands?

Public access to federal and state lands is often confusing in checkerboard and other intermingled land ownership areas. A public road, agency road, or stream which traverses the checkerboard or intermingled ownership may provide legal public access to state or federal lands adjacent to the travel route.

What does the law say with regard to corner crossing?

Corner crossing (such as at section corners) in checkerboard land patterns is not considered legal public access, and is not recommended. Recreationists are advised to obtain permission from the adjacent landowner to reduce conflict and ensure compliance with applicable access laws and rules.

PRESERVING AND

Sources: Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks, Montana Code Annotated, Sportsmen's Access Research Department, U.S. FWS, BLM, U.S. Forest Service.

 

[oleefish2]

So it will come down to someone with the time and money to take it to a Supreme Court ruling to get a straight answer. We can speculate all we want but I feel the WGF will support what they have done in the past because there is nothing to make them adjust their position. If sportsmen want it changed they need to band together and support a law proposing public access. Again money, legislative support, sportsmen support in the form of a signed petition/appeal and legal documentation proving case law will be needed to even get it review let alone changed.
This is just a guess on my part.

 

[Oak]

Let me just say that there is no specific law in Colorado addressing this issue. The case I referred to was in an area of ongoing problems, and the DA of that county had already told law enforcement that he would not prosecute trespassing cases in instances of corner-jumping.

If you try it and get caught, I'm pretty sure that "Oak said it was ok" is not an affirmative defense.

 

[1_pointer]

I hear tell it's illegal in UT, but haven't proven that yet. However, in UT privateland must be marked for you to not be able to access it and IMO that would also hold true for section corners.