Interesting......

[Gerald Martin]

For further illustration.. I have a custom 7 SAUM that i'm planning to work up a load with 145 gr cutting edge lazer bullets. These are about the best BC mono available and should create wider wound channels than a barnes, gmx, or etip.

I expect this bullet to run about 3000 FPS out of my rifle. If you crunch the #'s you'll find this will have comparable external ballistics to a 6.5 creedmoor shooting 130 grain berger AR hybrids and I would not be surprised if the 130 bergers created a more devastating wound channel. So in effect, to shoot copper i'm shooting bullets that cost 4x as much through a more expensive chambering with less barrel life and more recoil to achieve similar results to what I could have gotten in a cheaper, more pleasant, and easier to shoot cartridge. Shooting expensive magnums to get creedmoor performance..

For a guy who shoots a box of ammo annually and isn't going to shoot over 200 yards, maybe it doesn't matter. We all know a lot of us geek out over these differences though.

Different strokes and all that... each to their own.
My biggest limitation is time in the field, not my self-imposed 400 yard maximum distance or the or bullets that I choose to shoot.
Have there been times I didn’t take shots that others could have made? Absolutely. But that choice to not shoot was based on understanding my own ability to be accurate rather than bullet performance.
Something I don’t understand personally is taking a marginal elk caliber such as the 6.5 Creedmor and obsessing over how to get the best accuracy at ranges beyond where their kinetic energy is sub-optimal for the size of the animal.
Minimum velocity requirements for reliable expansion, kinetic energy, penetration and my personal accuracy skills in field conditions with the rifles I shoot all seem to converge right @ the 400-500 yard mark. That’s adequate for me.
From the research I have done, the advantages of better ballistic coefficients and sectional density take place at ranges beyond my personal ability to shoot so for me they’re not major factors in choosing a particular bullet.
Others have different input values in what determines their preferences for bullets and that’s fine.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This thread is like watching a turd that circles endlessly but won’t go down the toilet.

Come on. Embrace the fascination. You know you’ve watched in amazement sometimes at what was going down the tube.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My perspective on it - the monos I recently bought which seem to be most competitive with lead ballistically are cutting edge lazers at $1.68/ea projectile compared to $0.30-$0.55 for a berger or eld. I'm not going to shoot just 1 box of them a year, i'm probably going to shoot hundreds of bullets annually in most of my rifles.

I haven't looked at every link but I've yet to see a link where it shows human side effects from use of lead bullets. I'm not overly concerned with what is ingesting my gut piles in MT or MN. Perhaps i should be more concerned about my gut piles and I'm continuing to evaluate but i'm not to the point where I'm committed to spending more money for less performance with copper bullets. Honestly the performance is the main reason I haven't gotten on board with monos and paying way more for less performance makes it that much harder to switch. I realize for the average hunter who doesn't geek out about this stuff, shoots 2 boxes of ammo a year and is a MPBR type shooter limited to 200 yards, there is no reason not to switch.

I switched from Swift-A Frame to Etips... likely will transition to Hammers. With etips I've saving ~$15 per 50, with hammers $3.

I fall into the group described in your last sentence... though don't you as well? Aren't most of us... when it comes to hunting?

This conversation, isn't about banning lead. My understanding is that we are discussing lead in the context of hunting.

Sure your passion may be shooting, you may shoot 10,000 rnds a year.

How many of those are at elk, deer? and at what ranges? You shooting 100 elk a year at 600 yards, or are you like me and at most killing half a dozen big game animals at sub 300 yards.

I don't shoot steel #2s at clay, but I do at ducks...

Shoot bergers all year and then buy one box of etips for hunting. I certainly wasn't shooting box after box of A-frames at the range.

Not saying we should ban lead ammo, just asking you to consider hunting v. sport shooting.

 

[Ben Lamb]

My perspective on it - the monos I recently bought which seem to be most competitive with lead ballistically are cutting edge lazers at $1.68/ea projectile compared to $0.30-$0.55 for a berger or eld. I'm not going to shoot just 1 box of them a year, i'm probably going to shoot hundreds of bullets annually in most of my rifles.

I haven't looked at every link but I've yet to see a link where it shows human side effects from use of lead bullets. I'm not overly concerned with what is ingesting my gut piles in MT or MN. Perhaps i should be more concerned about my gut piles and I'm continuing to evaluate but i'm not to the point where I'm committed to spending more money for less performance with copper bullets. Honestly the performance is the main reason I haven't gotten on board with monos and paying way more for less performance makes it that much harder to switch. I realize for the average hunter who doesn't geek out about this stuff, shoots 2 boxes of ammo a year and is a MPBR type shooter limited to 200 yards, there is no reason not to switch.

Your gas bill for your out of state hunts are far more significant than the extra $100 you'd spend in ammo.

 

[MTTW]

Not all birds have gizzards. Raptors do not. They do have strong stomach acids and exceptionally high metabolism to speed digestion.

Interesting thought. I have not researched this, but have a solid understanding of the digestive system of a wide variety of species. I teach biology and wildlife biology.

The real problem for birds is their gizzard. If I eat a lead bullet it passes through me and will seem the same when passed in about 24 hours. My digestive acids will have removed an imperceptible layer of lead that has now been absorbed in through my intestines and into my bloodstream.

An eagle may eat shot or bullets intentionally or unintentionally. Why do birds intentionally eat pebbles? To aid in digestion due to their lack of teeth. They of course could ingest lead from a fish they caught that forages the bottom of ponds, or a gopher shot with a 22. That ingested lead will be much more mechanically digested while acting as grinders in the gizzard, that is the first modified section of stomach. They could stay there for some time as they do their job and send bits along the digestive tract.

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Different strokes and all that... each to their own.
My biggest limitation is time in the field, not my self-imposed 400 yard maximum distance or the or bullets that I choose to shoot.

Different strokes for sure. For some of us, shooting is a related year round hobby when we cant be hunting so we geek out about it. Your point is valid though

Something I don’t understand personally is taking a marginal elk caliber such as the 6.5 Creedmor and obsessing over how to get the best accuracy at ranges beyond where their kinetic energy is sub-optimal for the size of the animal.

This is basically my point. The best Copper bullets that cost 4x as much as good lead bullets turn my 7 SAUM into a 6.5 creedmoor ballistically. I'd be trading a little more forgiveness on heavy bone for a package that is harder to shoot accurately.

Kinetic energy numbers only tell a part of the story and that is also part of my point. A tough copper bullet that drills a narrow wound channel through an animal and exits with energy to spare likely does less wounding than frangible lead bullet with much less energy. By going with a high energy copper bullet you do gain more forgiveness for hitting heavy bone, but more energy, especially in a copper = more recoil = more difficult to make a good shot. Maybe my day is coming but I've yet to have lethal penetration be a problem on any animal.

To be clear - i'm not saying this is reason for everyone to disregard monos, just explaining some of the reasoning why it is not an obvious choice for some of us.

 

[refuseresist]

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

Google says all birds do have them.

Signed, not a biologist

 

[OntarioHunter]

California Condors like to take chunks out of the comp shingles on a good friend's cabin in the Sierras. I watched with wonder thinking wth is wrong with these birds? I don't know if shingles have lead in them, but any bird that will chew up comp shingles is not long for this world. Maybe eagles are smarter.....who knows.

I have seen grizzlies chug jugs of 2-cycle oil like it's beer. They will drink the gas cans dry too. Seems to have no ill effect. Petrochemical products aren't necessarily lethal. As far as I know lead has never been used in the manufacture of asphalt shingles.

 

[Hammsolo]

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

Great question! To the best of our knowledge all birds do, but they can be very different depending on diet. Hummingbirds gizzards are small and the smooth muscles are thin because nectar is pretty damn easy to digest. Raptors have a more heavy duty gizzard than them. It is bigger and the smooth muscles are thicker and more powerful to mash up tougher foods. Birds that eat fibrous plants, seeds and berries, like a turkey, tend to have an even more heavy duty gizzard.

 

[Dave N]

This thread is like watching a turd that circles endlessly but won’t go down the toilet.

Don't worry, someone could always start a fire!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Your gas bill for your out of state hunts are far more significant than the extra $100 you'd spend in ammo.

Let's call it 4 hunting rifles which is more accurate. I'd put that figure closer to $800 annually. Regardless, its the performance gap more than the cost to me. $800 annually to neuter the performance of your $3k+ custom rifles is unappealing.

 

[jryoung]

I stated the downsides of copper projectiles with zero reference to regulations. Of course they shouldn’t regulate BC.

Agreed, but I've had many conversations with folks that note the "low BC and high cost", but when asked what they currently shoot it is a core-lokt or similar.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Don't worry, someone could always start a fire!

Maybe they should so the turd can stop making laps.

I guess if bears can drink gas we can eat lead, amirite?

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

This thread is like watching a turd that circles endlessly but won’t go down the toilet.

I think the toilet is clogged

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Add to list of things not to post in order to avoid judgment from one side or the other:
--Distance of shot
--Bullet weight
--Bullet construction
--Rifle chambering
--Mask worn in tent with hunting partner or not
--BHA membership status
--Any pictures @Greenhorn would post

Safe today but on the rocks:
--Pack weight, might be arrogant on the way out

Hard to keep up around here.

 

[Sytes]

Your gas bill for your out of state hunts are far more significant than the extra $100 you'd spend in ammo.

You guys really shoot a chit ton! I buy one box (20ct) for my .06 elk thunder stick and one for my .270 deer thunder stick annually.

Difference?
I used to buy the Federal Premium 180 gr Nosler partitions for the .06 $40?
The E-Tip Nosler 180 gr for the .06 (20ct) is... $45

Again - I don't really have a dog in this fight - After reading Gerald's post about his experience including a fragment found in his sammich material - I'm not looking back... why should I? To each his/her own though for the factors mentioned earlier... I'm not eager to fight this one - even if it was eventually not available for purchase.

Switched this past year. I've followed the discussions here... it's pretty simple - scale between lead and copper. Performance, environment/health, cost.

My only Q - there is a fascination with the ol'e Sharps/Hawkins crafting lead balls and letting a real thunder stick rock my world. It's extended back to my childhood favorite books of the fur trapper days. My uncle took me hunting with his crafted Hawkins muzzleloader and he Ka-Plewied an elk. That was flippin fantastic! One of my most memorable moments as a young buck! I'm sure the fragments are much great with a lead ball slamming into an elk though I would oppose this from banned - ON PRINCIPLE! What principle? No fuggin clue though I hope to recreate that adventure one day before I'm unable to drag a sled into the Bob. Haha! I better get on with that kit!

 

[Deleted member 20812]

$800 annually to neuter the performance of your $3k+ custom rifles is unappealing.

Or you could buy Absolute Hammers for less than your Cutting Edge bullets and make a Cam Hanes version of your customs.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Let's call it 4 hunting rifles which is more accurate. I'd put that figure closer to $800 annually. Regardless, its the performance gap more than the cost to me. $800 annually to neuter the performance of your $3k+ custom rifles is unappealing.

So, still less the cost of your Deer/Elk combo.

The price issue is a red herring considering all the other things hunters spend cash on.

All of the rifles I have copper loads for have zero issues taking game ethically out to 400 yards and they all shoot under 1" at 100 yards and are ready to shoot out too 400 yards, whether their factory stock rifles or customs.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Ignoring things because they inconvenience you is tuff for me to understand. Be it seems to be the way people handle things now days.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Or you could buy Absolute Hammers for less than your Cutting Edge bullets and make a Cam Hanes version of your customs.

Maybe? I haven’t looked at them that close yet but all I’ve seen thus far is velocity talk. Hopefully they maintain precision and can keep consistent velocities.

I’m skeptical that you can just reduce the engraving pressure and maintain consistency at much faster speeds without any trade offs. Hopefully I’m wrong! That said, the cutting edge bullets operate on a lower engraving pressure principal too. BC and consistency trump velocity and the absolute hammer BC sucks. Enough so that a lazer would outperform them in wind deflection even with significantly lower velocities.