Interesting......

[Gerald Martin]

This thread is like watching a turd that circles endlessly but won’t go down the toilet.

Come on. Embrace the fascination. You know you’ve watched in amazement sometimes at what was going down the tube.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My perspective on it - the monos I recently bought which seem to be most competitive with lead ballistically are cutting edge lazers at $1.68/ea projectile compared to $0.30-$0.55 for a berger or eld. I'm not going to shoot just 1 box of them a year, i'm probably going to shoot hundreds of bullets annually in most of my rifles.

I haven't looked at every link but I've yet to see a link where it shows human side effects from use of lead bullets. I'm not overly concerned with what is ingesting my gut piles in MT or MN. Perhaps i should be more concerned about my gut piles and I'm continuing to evaluate but i'm not to the point where I'm committed to spending more money for less performance with copper bullets. Honestly the performance is the main reason I haven't gotten on board with monos and paying way more for less performance makes it that much harder to switch. I realize for the average hunter who doesn't geek out about this stuff, shoots 2 boxes of ammo a year and is a MPBR type shooter limited to 200 yards, there is no reason not to switch.

I switched from Swift-A Frame to Etips... likely will transition to Hammers. With etips I've saving ~$15 per 50, with hammers $3.

I fall into the group described in your last sentence... though don't you as well? Aren't most of us... when it comes to hunting?

This conversation, isn't about banning lead. My understanding is that we are discussing lead in the context of hunting.

Sure your passion may be shooting, you may shoot 10,000 rnds a year.

How many of those are at elk, deer? and at what ranges? You shooting 100 elk a year at 600 yards, or are you like me and at most killing half a dozen big game animals at sub 300 yards.

I don't shoot steel #2s at clay, but I do at ducks...

Shoot bergers all year and then buy one box of etips for hunting. I certainly wasn't shooting box after box of A-frames at the range.

Not saying we should ban lead ammo, just asking you to consider hunting v. sport shooting.

 

[Ben Lamb]

My perspective on it - the monos I recently bought which seem to be most competitive with lead ballistically are cutting edge lazers at $1.68/ea projectile compared to $0.30-$0.55 for a berger or eld. I'm not going to shoot just 1 box of them a year, i'm probably going to shoot hundreds of bullets annually in most of my rifles.

I haven't looked at every link but I've yet to see a link where it shows human side effects from use of lead bullets. I'm not overly concerned with what is ingesting my gut piles in MT or MN. Perhaps i should be more concerned about my gut piles and I'm continuing to evaluate but i'm not to the point where I'm committed to spending more money for less performance with copper bullets. Honestly the performance is the main reason I haven't gotten on board with monos and paying way more for less performance makes it that much harder to switch. I realize for the average hunter who doesn't geek out about this stuff, shoots 2 boxes of ammo a year and is a MPBR type shooter limited to 200 yards, there is no reason not to switch.

Your gas bill for your out of state hunts are far more significant than the extra $100 you'd spend in ammo.

 

[MTTW]

Not all birds have gizzards. Raptors do not. They do have strong stomach acids and exceptionally high metabolism to speed digestion.

Interesting thought. I have not researched this, but have a solid understanding of the digestive system of a wide variety of species. I teach biology and wildlife biology.

The real problem for birds is their gizzard. If I eat a lead bullet it passes through me and will seem the same when passed in about 24 hours. My digestive acids will have removed an imperceptible layer of lead that has now been absorbed in through my intestines and into my bloodstream.

An eagle may eat shot or bullets intentionally or unintentionally. Why do birds intentionally eat pebbles? To aid in digestion due to their lack of teeth. They of course could ingest lead from a fish they caught that forages the bottom of ponds, or a gopher shot with a 22. That ingested lead will be much more mechanically digested while acting as grinders in the gizzard, that is the first modified section of stomach. They could stay there for some time as they do their job and send bits along the digestive tract.

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Different strokes and all that... each to their own.
My biggest limitation is time in the field, not my self-imposed 400 yard maximum distance or the or bullets that I choose to shoot.

Different strokes for sure. For some of us, shooting is a related year round hobby when we cant be hunting so we geek out about it. Your point is valid though

Something I don’t understand personally is taking a marginal elk caliber such as the 6.5 Creedmor and obsessing over how to get the best accuracy at ranges beyond where their kinetic energy is sub-optimal for the size of the animal.

This is basically my point. The best Copper bullets that cost 4x as much as good lead bullets turn my 7 SAUM into a 6.5 creedmoor ballistically. I'd be trading a little more forgiveness on heavy bone for a package that is harder to shoot accurately.

Kinetic energy numbers only tell a part of the story and that is also part of my point. A tough copper bullet that drills a narrow wound channel through an animal and exits with energy to spare likely does less wounding than frangible lead bullet with much less energy. By going with a high energy copper bullet you do gain more forgiveness for hitting heavy bone, but more energy, especially in a copper = more recoil = more difficult to make a good shot. Maybe my day is coming but I've yet to have lethal penetration be a problem on any animal.

To be clear - i'm not saying this is reason for everyone to disregard monos, just explaining some of the reasoning why it is not an obvious choice for some of us.

 

[refuseresist]

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

Google says all birds do have them.

Signed, not a biologist

 

[OntarioHunter]

California Condors like to take chunks out of the comp shingles on a good friend's cabin in the Sierras. I watched with wonder thinking wth is wrong with these birds? I don't know if shingles have lead in them, but any bird that will chew up comp shingles is not long for this world. Maybe eagles are smarter.....who knows.

I have seen grizzlies chug jugs of 2-cycle oil like it's beer. They will drink the gas cans dry too. Seems to have no ill effect. Petrochemical products aren't necessarily lethal. As far as I know lead has never been used in the manufacture of asphalt shingles.

 

[Hammsolo]

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

Great question! To the best of our knowledge all birds do, but they can be very different depending on diet. Hummingbirds gizzards are small and the smooth muscles are thin because nectar is pretty damn easy to digest. Raptors have a more heavy duty gizzard than them. It is bigger and the smooth muscles are thicker and more powerful to mash up tougher foods. Birds that eat fibrous plants, seeds and berries, like a turkey, tend to have an even more heavy duty gizzard.

 

[Dave N]

This thread is like watching a turd that circles endlessly but won’t go down the toilet.

Don't worry, someone could always start a fire!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Your gas bill for your out of state hunts are far more significant than the extra $100 you'd spend in ammo.

Let's call it 4 hunting rifles which is more accurate. I'd put that figure closer to $800 annually. Regardless, its the performance gap more than the cost to me. $800 annually to neuter the performance of your $3k+ custom rifles is unappealing.

 

[jryoung]

I stated the downsides of copper projectiles with zero reference to regulations. Of course they shouldn’t regulate BC.

Agreed, but I've had many conversations with folks that note the "low BC and high cost", but when asked what they currently shoot it is a core-lokt or similar.

 

[El Jason]

Don't worry, someone could always start a fire!

Maybe they should so the turd can stop making laps.

I guess if bears can drink gas we can eat lead, amirite?

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

This thread is like watching a turd that circles endlessly but won’t go down the toilet.

I think the toilet is clogged

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Add to list of things not to post in order to avoid judgment from one side or the other:
--Distance of shot
--Bullet weight
--Bullet construction
--Rifle chambering
--Mask worn in tent with hunting partner or not
--BHA membership status
--Any pictures @Greenhorn would post

Safe today but on the rocks:
--Pack weight, might be arrogant on the way out

Hard to keep up around here.

 

[Sytes]

Your gas bill for your out of state hunts are far more significant than the extra $100 you'd spend in ammo.

You guys really shoot a chit ton! I buy one box (20ct) for my .06 elk thunder stick and one for my .270 deer thunder stick annually.

Difference?
I used to buy the Federal Premium 180 gr Nosler partitions for the .06 $40?
The E-Tip Nosler 180 gr for the .06 (20ct) is... $45

Again - I don't really have a dog in this fight - After reading Gerald's post about his experience including a fragment found in his sammich material - I'm not looking back... why should I? To each his/her own though for the factors mentioned earlier... I'm not eager to fight this one - even if it was eventually not available for purchase.

Switched this past year. I've followed the discussions here... it's pretty simple - scale between lead and copper. Performance, environment/health, cost.

My only Q - there is a fascination with the ol'e Sharps/Hawkins crafting lead balls and letting a real thunder stick rock my world. It's extended back to my childhood favorite books of the fur trapper days. My uncle took me hunting with his crafted Hawkins muzzleloader and he Ka-Plewied an elk. That was flippin fantastic! One of my most memorable moments as a young buck! I'm sure the fragments are much great with a lead ball slamming into an elk though I would oppose this from banned - ON PRINCIPLE! What principle? No fuggin clue though I hope to recreate that adventure one day before I'm unable to drag a sled into the Bob. Haha! I better get on with that kit!

 

[El Jason]

$800 annually to neuter the performance of your $3k+ custom rifles is unappealing.

Or you could buy Absolute Hammers for less than your Cutting Edge bullets and make a Cam Hanes version of your customs.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Let's call it 4 hunting rifles which is more accurate. I'd put that figure closer to $800 annually. Regardless, its the performance gap more than the cost to me. $800 annually to neuter the performance of your $3k+ custom rifles is unappealing.

So, still less the cost of your Deer/Elk combo.

The price issue is a red herring considering all the other things hunters spend cash on.

All of the rifles I have copper loads for have zero issues taking game ethically out to 400 yards and they all shoot under 1" at 100 yards and are ready to shoot out too 400 yards, whether their factory stock rifles or customs.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Ignoring things because they inconvenience you is tuff for me to understand. Be it seems to be the way people handle things now days.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Or you could buy Absolute Hammers for less than your Cutting Edge bullets and make a Cam Hanes version of your customs.

Maybe? I haven’t looked at them that close yet but all I’ve seen thus far is velocity talk. Hopefully they maintain precision and can keep consistent velocities.

I’m skeptical that you can just reduce the engraving pressure and maintain consistency at much faster speeds without any trade offs. Hopefully I’m wrong! That said, the cutting edge bullets operate on a lower engraving pressure principal too. BC and consistency trump velocity and the absolute hammer BC sucks. Enough so that a lazer would outperform them in wind deflection even with significantly lower velocities.

 

[Paul in Idaho]

I just have a hard time believing that golden eagles are getting enough lead from gut piles to even be detectable, much less harmful to them. I've always had trouble buying this.

I couldn't get the article to open, but I've read plenty stuff like it to surmise what it says.

About 10 years ago, I thought the same thing. I wanted to know more, and remembered that I had a deer heart in my freezer. I asked the veterinarian who cares for my dogs if he would x-ray the heart for me. He said yes, as he's also a hunter and was curious about the lead topic.

The results surprised me. That deer had been taken with a .30-06 180 grain Partition bullet that punched the aorta area a few inches away from the heart. Even though the bullet had not punctured the heart and I had done a very thorough cleaning of it before freezing, there were numerous metallic fragments visible on the xray film.

I didn't have the right equipment to get a perfect photo of the film. The attached image shows what I was able to capture with my camera. I could see more fragments than appear in this picture.

The best size comparison I can think of to describe the size of most lead fragments is ground black pepper. Specks that size are not easily visible in a gut pile. There are 2 larger fragments visible in the xray, but most are tiny.

The final factor in my personal decision to switch to copper bullets was simple math. Nosler advertises that Partition bullets retain 65-70% of their weight. That means 30-35% separates. If 30% of a 180gr bullet comes apart, that is 54 grains of bullet metal being dispersed. The USFWS says "Laboratory dosing studies show that about one grain of lead will cause poisoning in bald eagles." So, a single premium lead bullet may deposit 50 times the amount needed to make an eagle sick. Cheap lead bullets leave more fragments.

I personally see the conservation aspect of our hunting heritage as an essential responsibility to ensure the future of hunting. My personal definition of conservation requires me to not cause illness or death of any individuals of any species other than the single animal I intend to take for meat.

When I returned to my 2020 elk for the final load of meat, there was a golden eagle near it. I was glad to know I had provided a safe meal of elk entrails for that eagle and others by shooting the elk with a copper TTSX bullet. The performance of copper bullets both at the range and for hunting has been excellent in my rifle, and I see no advantage to returning to lead for hunting. I still shoot cheap lead ammo at the range when practicing.