Horse, llama, goat pack animals

[Sytes]

Who uses? Pro's n con's...

Picture courtesy of GoHunt article linked below:


I'm thinking of adding 3 goats to the backcountry arsenal however, I've read some anti-goat themes over the bighorn sheep pneumonia issues and the counter to the discussions. I am just stepping into the arena of consideration and open to hear thoughts on all aspects of goats for packing...
Not sure if I am up for Llamas though again know little to nothing about them as well.
I have been a long time horse/mule person. Raised on a ranch, worked in my young years as a lodge "wrangler", back country 8 day tdy's into the wilderness for the FS. (If this was a permanent position, I would have married a pine tree to stay), some 10 years ago sold my horses and since little contact. Now, my property is set, 2 trail ready horses for spring and instead of a third, I am thinking the goats...

Besides, I'll convince my daughter to take on these pack goats as her 4H project...

However, before I convince her pack goats are a better option than rabbits, hens/rooster, or whatever other farming considerations she has, anyone use goats? Also, goats work okay with horses? My dogs will do fine with them though how are goats with dogs? Can 3 goats be hauled in a 3 horse slant with 2 horses in the front 2 slots?

Of the reading material, this article seemed the most informative... thoughts? https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/pack-goats-are-they-the-best-pack-animal#gs.bli8T9o

A good catalog - from what has been shared: https://northwestpackgoats.com/index.php?main_page=index

Share away, please.

 

[JohnCushman]

And you'd have something around for if you ever get lonely and need some love :hump:

 

[Sytes]

And you'd have something around for if you ever get lonely and need some love :hump:

Ah versatile qualities... Good thinking, John. Unfortunately, I was not born in N. Dakota, nor did I go to Sam Houston State so I do not possess that gene nor educational quality so I'll have to bow out.

Anyone with Alpacas? How much can be made with their fur and related to horses, their feed intake basically the same as a llama, I would imagine... Does the fur offset cost to a fair extent?

Also on the goat note, how is their gait vs a horse? Would goats keep up over a 10 mile route or?

 

[DirtyDan]

I know nothing of the subject, but am very interested. I've been looking seriously at lamas for a couple years. I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread.

 

[mtmuley]

Shoot a Creedmoor? mtmuley

 

[Southern Elk]

My only experience is with horses, but I want to say that I've read that llamas and maybe even goats can't keep up with horses. I don't think you would do very well with a mixed pack string. If I had two horses, like you, I would just add a third.

 

[Southern Elk]

Duck-Slayer on the forum has goats. Maybe he will chime in.

 

[Blacktailbc]

Llamas can't usually keep up with a horse. Their pace is about the same as yours, and slower if going uphill & your not packing weight . They are easy keepers, don't eat or drink much , and will go places a horse won't.
They aren't terribly fast, and will pack 50-80 lbs depending on the llama & training. They also aren't terribly good in the heat IME....they can overheat in hot conditions....lay down & are done.
They are cool critters, and have their strong / weak points.

 

[Gerald Martin]

My daughter's horse eat a lot of hay. A lot.

 

[T Bone]

I've rented llamas and packed with a friend that has goats.

My llamas were top notch. They were on the large side of llamas and would pack 80ish pounds for about 15 miles of big country, then were done for the day. They don't eat much, and can go days without water. I've seen a bad one on the trail, it tried to fight for dominance with every human, horse, mule, or goat it met on the trail. It got shot.

My friend runs 4 goats of the Sanen?? breed. 40 lbs payload. They follow like a dog. Often he doesn't even have them on a lead. They will eat anything, including your tent. He shot one goat that kept head butting him.

So, the moral of the story with llamas and goats, if they don't behave, shoot them.

Have you looked at full size burros? I ran upon a packstring of them 2 years ago. Impressive critters that were packing heavy loads.

If I had a place to keep pack critters, it'd be llamas or goats.

 

[noharleyyet]

Ah versatile qualities... Good thinking, John. Unfortunately, I was not born in N. Dakota, nor did I go to Sam Houston State so I do not possess that gene nor educational quality so I'll have to bow out.

You sure about that?

 

[Southern Elk]

So, the moral of the story with llamas and goats, if they don't behave, shoot them.

We rented horses once and one of them had a bad habit of laying down and rolling out of the panniers. We were using the kind of panniers that were placed over a riding saddle. We led the horses in while they packed our gear, then hunted from them once we got packed in. This particular horse rolled over and completely dumped his load about three times. Finally the guy leading him pulled his 44 mag on the horse and said "how much did that guy say we owed him if we didn't bring this horse back"? We reminded him that it was $1,500. He begrudgingly holstered his revolver and started packing again.

 

[windymtnman]

If you're not considering buying a horse or mule, another great option for you are burros, (donkeys are the same thing. burro's are just a term used when they come wild off the range).
What I don't see addressed much here are your facilities and other things that impact your decision. Of course feed availability and cost are huge. Then, how much acreage and fencing do you have? Goats might be escape artists and also may be very naughty! On the other hand, you can probably have a much smaller trailer and rig to transport them with. Of course they'll pack less weight.

Burro's are incredibly cheap if you know where to acquire them. The BLM has a hundreds of them in holding facilities You can complete an adoption form and get them for $125.00. There's another program, where you can get them "started" or gentled for that same $125.00, and the trainer gets reimbursed by BLM for this. (You'd still have to train them to pack but probably not all that difficult. Many trainers would do that for you for a nominal fee too. Burros are hardy, eat lower quality hay so that costs less. Plus they are cute as can be and fun to be around. If you want more info about acquiring one, let me know.

 

[squirrel]

For the specific question you asked (integrating with horses) do not think of llamas as a solution. As I have 19 packers eating my hay as I speak, they are not for this purpose for half a dozen good reasons.

I have only observed goats, never owned them and I would say the same goes for them.

Now mixing llamas and goats?? maybe.

Each species by themselves?? absolutely, though each has quirks, strengths and weaknesses.

For your specific application I think your only realistic choices would be more horses or mules, perhaps a donkey, but I was ready to load up one and my Mrs. said NO in a loud and clear voice so I have no experience with donkeys. (He was awfully cute though, thought about skinning a dead llama and camouflaging him into the herd, she aint about to take her boots off to count to 20)

If you want to go with llamas I can help a lot but for mixing them with horses not with a ten foot pole.

 

[LuketheDog]

^What he said. It doesn't strike me as a great idea to go mixing horses/mules/donkeys with llamas or goats.

 

[MJE2083]

I know nothing about pack animals and I'm not sure if this would be a concern or not but a know a guy that keeps goats (not for packing) but he also keeps two donkeys in with them to keep coyotes and whatnot away. He says that they're fearless and will stomp a coyote if they try to get at his goats.

 

[Sytes]

Few good reads on the topic:

http://www.highuintapackgoats.com/faqs.htm

http://www.backcountry.com/explore/backpacking-the-goatworthy-way#

From conversations here and elsewhere, I think the idea of llamas with horses is a no go. I take it alpacas are pretty much the same as llamas?

Goals for myself:
1. Quality 4H project for daughter with the secret knowledge it / they are mine, all mine! For my use at my discretion...
2. Animal(s) to pack gear/meat.
3. Prefer cheap feed/maintenance.

Basically I am comfortably budgeted for 2 horses... I need a source for packing. While another horse will do especially as a third person for the casual rides when not packing, it absorbs a hoot load of my remaining budget. It is within the budget though with anything, the more $ the merrier. A burro does good though for the somewhat reduced feed/maintenance, I think it may be worth the extra $ for the third horse. From what I've read, the goats DO get along with horses. Though will they pace accordingly?

Seems the convo on horse/goat travel speed is pretty sparse and thus far, Google is not my friend. Seems they, (goats) like to feed along the trail though catch up before they lose sight of "you" and once they get going, plug along the trail following it the order they defined amongst themselves. Monday, I'll call some of these places shared in the links.

Awesome info all, thanks! NHY, your picture has been nixed by my gov't computer... so for the time being, "no comment".

 

[Sytes]

I had an opportunity to chat with a couple involved in back country goat activity.

One conversation (My best journo impression <humor>):

Approximate speed of a horse vs goat? Horse normal speed 2x's a goat. Goats speed up and slow down as they feed along the trail. Have your horse travel around a human's pace if possible. Goats are similar to dogs. They will chase to catch up and slow to eat. Every 1.5 hours it will help to take a break.

How are they with horses? Goats get along great with horses though horses have to be developed around the goats to become friendly.

How about interaction on the trail with other horses? I always step off the trail around 40 feet once I see a string and request if they have any dogs to keep them with their pack as dogs tend to chase but, main time I run into other horses and dogs are typically at a trailhead.

I am not a fan of conflict on the trail so this gave me a bit of concern for my desire. A few other questions though these were the main ones for my focus.

Another I spoke with after a brief conversation - less journo and more - straight to the point considering the prior information gathered:

I have a couple horses and looking for a pack source. I am considering pack goats. What are your thoughts about this? is this a reasonable combination for the trail? We have horses as well as pack goats and tried this however the pack goats want to be with the human and want to travel too close to the horse, intermingling with the horse's legs, etc. It did not work out too well. We do not do this any longer.

I had an enjoyable conversation with both. Great people! If not for the bit of limitations on my back country hiking activity, goats would definitely be in my pasture. They sound like fantastic Sam Houston companions, none the less their pack ability, feed/maintenance costs. These goats are bad ass!

Well... looks like I'm back to a burro or another horse for thought. OR lose some 30 #'s and pack ultra light saddle bags. Strike that, No Jenny Craig here.

 

[Mthuntinfool]

I have only packed with horses/mules, and wouldn't go to anything else. I have 3 Percheron/Morgan cross that I use for packing, and a quarter horse that I ride pack as well.
The weight that a horse can carry versus a llama or goat for the same amount of work so to speak makes it a no-brainer for me.
I also use them for ranch work ect. the rest of the year, so they get used all year round.
Just my 2 cents

 

[ida homer]

I've had 3 goats for 4 years now, I would barely do it again. If you have 2 good conditioned horses already then forget about goats or llamas and maybe consider a 3rd horse. Never get llamas, pound for pound what they can carry is not efficient in my eyes and I hate their attitudes. My 3 goats fit in an old style 2 place horse trailer easily, I could fit a 4th in it if I wanted. They also fit in a standard 6' bed with a jimmy rigged stock rack as well. If you want to know all about goats and specifically hunting with goats then google Marc Marnke. There is no one more committed.

Pound for pound, they are very strong. My hang up with goats vs. horses is that goats require 75% of the maintenance that horses do for 20-30% of the payload. They need exercise twice a week all spring and summer, they need their hooves trimmed once every 2 months (a total PITA), they need to be on your own property, they need serious people bonding and you still need hay in the winter typically. You don't NEED a trailer, but it's handy as you won't have room for gear/meat. It's all about preference but the goats do have the cool factor.

They are still damn agile with 40-60lb loads. No trail necessary.