Corner crossing SCOTUS appeal

[Gerald Martin]

How are we hopping these corners? Just zooming in as close as possible on onx? Finding the actual marker?

Find the actual marker only. You’re going to be navigating completely uncharted legal territory if you’re just getting as close as a GPS app shows and depending on that to ensure you’re not trespassing.

OnX or similar apps are a tool to get you close enough to hopefully find and verify a legal entry point. Physical verification is still going to be required to ensure you don’t trespass.

If I had to guess there’s going to be a case in the future where someone tries to make the argument that “close enough” is corner crossing and they’re going to be found guilty of trespass. In my opinion they should be found guilty if they don’t find and cross at an actual corner pin. If a corner is not surveyed and marked by a pin, they might have a defense but that’s an expanded situation.

Personally, I don’t think I would cross an unmarked corner at this point.

 

[MT Super Puncher]

Pure speculation on my part, but SCOTUS declining this case makes me believe it’s more likely for other circuits to follow the established precedent.

Not necessarily. There was basically zero chance SCOTUS was going to take this appeal in the first place. The only way I see SCOTUS taking up this issue is if another Circuit rules the other way on corner crossing. Until that happens, SCOTUS won't have a reason to rule on this issue. As this issue genuinely only affects the West, if the 9th Cir. takes up this issue, and goes the same way as the 10th, that will pretty much end the discussion without a SCOTUS ruling. If the 9th Cir. takes a case, and rules the opposite way of the 10th, I would then imagine SCOTUS would hear it. Best case scenario for all of us is to have the 9th Cir. rule on a case the same way as the 10th IMO.

 

[BuzzH]

Find the actual marker only. You’re going to be navigating completely uncharted legal territory if you’re just getting as close as a GPS app shows and depending on that to ensure you’re not trespassing.

OnX or similar apps are a tool to get you close enough to hopefully find and verify a legal entry point. Physical verification is still going to be required to ensure you don’t trespass.

If I had to guess there’s going to be a case in the future where someone tries to make the argument that “close enough” is corner crossing and they’re going to be found guilty of trespass. In my opinion they should be found guilty if they don’t find and cross at an actual corner pin. If a corner is not surveyed and marked by a pin, they might have a defense but that’s an expanded situation.

Personally, I don’t think I would cross an unmarked corner at this point.

The only way anyone is going to be prosecuted for trespass is if the pin is there and someone does not cross at the pin.

Otherwise the only recourse is to use the most reasonable information you have, GPS, mapping software, etc.

IMO, onx and a few others are not sending good information regarding crossing. I think they're talking to the wrong attorneys trying to cover themselves. I 100% would, will, and have crossed corners with no markers.

Prove I trespassed. Good luck with that and if a landowner wants the exact corner to be crossed, survey it in, if not they need to expect users to be crossing with the best available tools and information they have.

 

[Dougfirtree]

The only way anyone is going to be prosecuted for trespass is if the pin is there and someone does not cross at the pin.

Otherwise the only recourse is to use the most reasonable information you have, GPS, mapping software, etc.

IMO, onx and a few others are not sending good information regarding crossing. I think they're talking to the wrong attorneys trying to cover themselves. I 100% would, will, and have crossed corners with no markers.

Prove I trespassed. Good luck with that and if a landowner wants the exact corner to be crossed, survey it in, if not they need to expect users to be crossing with the best available tools and information they have.

While I feel some of Gerald's caution, as well, and wouldn't fault anyone for acting as such, I agree with you on this. I think it's more than just a question of you can do this. We probably should do this. It's the only way that we will functionally maintain this right. It's too easy for landowners to remove pins, move pins, move fences, etc. otherwise.

 

[Gulf of America]

Find the actual marker only. You’re going to be navigating completely uncharted legal territory if you’re just getting as close as a GPS app shows and depending on that to ensure you’re not trespassing.

OnX or similar apps are a tool to get you close enough to hopefully find and verify a legal entry point. Physical verification is still going to be required to ensure you don’t trespass.

If I had to guess there’s going to be a case in the future where someone tries to make the argument that “close enough” is corner crossing and they’re going to be found guilty of trespass. In my opinion they should be found guilty if they don’t find and cross at an actual corner pin. If a corner is not surveyed and marked by a pin, they might have a defense but that’s an expanded situation.

Personally, I don’t think I would cross an unmarked corner at this point.

The legal burden for criminal trespass is to prove guilt, not prove innocence. If there is not a located corner pin, I just have a really hard time imagining evidence strong enough to convict, short of an overhead photo of the trespass-in-question crossing overlaid with surveyed corner location. A pretty strong defense is that the phone gps accuracy of the trespasser-in-question is only 5-10 meters, so if you're that close to an unmarked corner, it would be hard to prove you weren't directly over it. Civil trespass is a lower standard, but then the landowner would have to prove damages which didn't pan out for Eshelman.

Edit: All that being said, that doesn't stop them from putting you through hell to come out with an acquittal. Better have deep pockets or hope the folks who contributed to the BHA GoFundMe are ready to pony up again!

One more edit: I think the ground conditions and what footprints are left could be a pretty key bit of evidence. If I was going to corner cross at corner without a pin, I probably wouldn't do it with snow on the ground.

 

[Elky Welky]

Not necessarily. There was basically zero chance SCOTUS was going to take this appeal in the first place. The only way I see SCOTUS taking up this issue is if another Circuit rules the other way on corner crossing. Until that happens, SCOTUS won't have a reason to rule on this issue. As this issue genuinely only affects the West, if the 9th Cir. takes up this issue, and goes the same way as the 10th, that will pretty much end the discussion without a SCOTUS ruling. If the 9th Cir. takes a case, and rules the opposite way of the 10th, I would then imagine SCOTUS would hear it. Best case scenario for all of us is to have the 9th Cir. rule on a case the same way as the 10th IMO.

I agree and didn't think they would take it without a circuit split, but the more ingrained it becomes in the 10th, the stronger that precedent will become. No doubt people in the 10th are going to start crossing more, as is their right, and there will be more litigation. I think @El Jason is onto something there regarding the strength of this precedent.

All that being said, that doesn't stop them from putting you through hell to come out with an acquittal. Better have deep pockets or hope the folks who contributed to the BHA GoFundMe are ready to pony up again!

If it happens in MT and is a true corner crossing case, MT-BHA is at the ready to help raise funds and fight the good fight. I maintain my belief that our AG would rather keep us in fear of prosecution than actually do anything that could create precedent he doesn't like.

I wouldn't be surprised if UPOM and their slimy ilk lobbies in the next session to make it expressly illegal in MT as well.

 

[SAJ-99]

I probably wouldn't do it with snow on the ground.

My thought exactly.

I think @El Jason is onto something there regarding the strength of this precedent.

My problem with it is I believe the decision in the case doesn't just simply say "you can cross at corners". It said you can cross at the corner if you have no other option to access (my words, not the judge's). I would like someone to clarify this if I am wrong.

 

[300stw]

i think the AG's family took a hit over acces in east montana. probably not in the mood to help corner crossers,,,

 

[SaskHunter]

Even though we got the 'win', don't think for moment that the Wyoming Welfare Stockgrowers are going to make it easy on you out there on public land. Regardless of CC or accessing large swathes of public land, they'll still be trying their bluff charging to fool you that your on private and do remember, the large landowners have the Wy Game and Fish in their back pocket so don't expect hunter harassment charges to be filed but do expect that you'll be looked over hard by that twig pig to write you up for something.

Eshelman had had a bunch of support, including the Carbon Co sheriff, County Attorney and Game and Fish so we didn't just beat a greedy opioid king, we beat a stable full of sellouts

These "tough cowboys" are such little whinny nags...

 

[Gerald Martin]

The only way anyone is going to be prosecuted for trespass is if the pin is there and someone does not cross at the pin.

Otherwise the only recourse is to use the most reasonable information you have, GPS, mapping software, etc.

IMO, onx and a few others are not sending good information regarding crossing. I think they're talking to the wrong attorneys trying to cover themselves. I 100% would, will, and have crossed corners with no markers.

Prove I trespassed. Good luck with that and if a landowner wants the exact corner to be crossed, survey it in, if not they need to expect users to be crossing with the best available tools and information they have.

I agree. But the point I was trying to make is that if a corner exists and you cross in a place that OnX shows is the corner but ONx happens to be inaccurate in location, being “close enough” may not protect you from a successful prosecution for trespass.

That’s not a level of risk I am personally willing to assume at this point.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I agree and didn't think they would take it without a circuit split, but the more ingrained it becomes in the 10th, the stronger that precedent will become. No doubt people in the 10th are going to start crossing more, as is their right, and there will be more litigation. I think @El Jason is onto something there regarding the strength of this precedent.

If it happens in MT and is a true corner crossing case, MT-BHA is at the ready to help raise funds and fight the good fight. I maintain my belief that our AG would rather keep us in fear of prosecution than actually do anything that could create precedent he doesn't like.

I wouldn't be surprised if UPOM and their slimy ilk lobbies in the next session to make it expressly illegal in MT as well.

I think you’re correct about all of this.

There’s not a lot of people who can individually afford adequate representation against an aggressive individual such as Eshelman. In the Missouri hunters case, they did everything perfectly in their actions and the fund raising efforts of BHA and others was a huge factor in them being able to stay the course and see their case to completion.

Knowing that there are groups and people willing to support me financially if I were subjected to harassment of an unjust prosecution gives me the confidence do what I feel is my legal right.

Personally, how I conduct myself during the exercise of that right is something that I would want to be as close to the facts of record of the Missouri hunters to ensure that the precedent set in their case would be upheld in the 9th Circuit.

If a corner pin existed and I crossed 10’ away because OnX showed the corner was there and I didn’t search for the pin or assumed it wasn’t there, I don’t see how I could expect assistance for what would likely be a guilty verdict if prosecuted. That’s me personally. I agree with Buzz and the others if a corner isn’t marked.

However, “Prove that I was trespassing”, is pretty easy if a landowner has a trail camera picture of you crossing beside the bush 10’ from the pin and points out the pin to the warden who is writing the ticket. That’s not a situation where I would expect a successful defense in court.

 

[antlerradar]

However, “Prove that I was trespassing”, is pretty easy if a landowner has a trail camera picture of you crossing beside the bush 10’ from the pin and points out the pin to the warden who is writing the ticket. That’s not a situation where I would expect a successful defense in court.

Wouldn't even have to be 10 feet, Unless you put your feet in the same path both coming and going, you stepped on the wrong part of the corner. Knit picky, Yes, but also not what you want for a test case.

 

[Elky Welky]

Knowing that there are groups and people willing to support me financially if I were subjected to harassment of an unjust prosecution gives me the confidence do what I feel is my legal right.

Good deal. We can get hot and disagree all day here on other heady topics, but 100% would have your back on this one, because I know you'd do it right, same as the Missourians. I'd maybe just ask you keep rocking that BHA license plate

 

[BuzzH]

While I feel some of Gerald's caution, as well, and wouldn't fault anyone for acting as such, I agree with you on this. I think it's more than just a question of you can do this. We probably should do this. It's the only way that we will functionally maintain this right. It's too easy for landowners to remove pins, move pins, move fences, etc. otherwise.

We're being too cautious. Right now we're in a position of power to negotiate. But per usual, hunters, anglers, and outdoor recreationists are once again hiding under the bed trembling in fear of all these what-if's.

I saw the same thing with stream access in Montana, same thing with state land access in Montana. Same old story, well, just because we have stream access maybe we shouldn't do it to keep good faith with the landowners, same with state land access.

I say bullshit to all that noise. For way too long landowners in Montana locked up public waters, posted state lands, and were happy as can be in their little fiefdoms. Where was the concern for them taking away something from everyone else?

Its no do different with corner crossing. If the landowners are so concerned about the corners, like I said survey them in. If not, go out and pound a T-post in the ground. Even better, get to the table and negotiate how we're going to go forward with marking the corners, what we can define as close enough, etc.

That's not to mean that as hunters, anglers, etc. we give up anything, only to negotiate what makes sense to keep everyone on the same page. The negotiations for whether corner crossing is legal in the 10th is over, that's now black and white.

Its wayyyy past time that hunters, anglers, etc. start crossing corners and enjoy what's been denied us for way too long. I'm over it.

 

[BuzzH]

If I was going to corner cross at corner without a pin, I probably wouldn't do it with snow on the ground.

I would, and without a second thought. Makes no difference if there's boot tracks in the snow, mud, whatever. The courts are going to look at what a reasonable person would do in that situation, snow or not. If the best tool you have is 5-10 foot accuracy, the landowner has nothing better to prove you're wrong. Pictures in the snow mean zero.

I would also bet a vast majority of law enforcement and County Attorneys are going to tell the landowners to pound sand if they try to ticket people for using GPS's at unmarked corners.

 

[elkduds]

I would, and without a second thought. Makes no difference if there's boot tracks in the snow, mud, whatever. The courts are going to look at what a reasonable person would do in that situation, snow or not. If the best tool you have is 5-10 foot accuracy, the landowner has nothing better to prove you're wrong. Pictures in the snow mean zero.

I would also bet a vast majority of law enforcement and County Attorneys are going to tell the landowners to pound sand if they try to ticket people for using GPS's at unmarked corners.

Huge fan of your advocacy. Wish I shared your faith in the court system. Thanks again for making corners crossable.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

I'm developing an ultralight telescopic pole to pole vault some corners this fall in celebration. Probably practice at home for a bit then deploy the device in the field.

I'm thinking I'll sell it on Camofire.

 

[elkduds]

I'm developing an ultralight telescopic pole to pole vault some corners this fall in celebration. Probably practice at home for a bit then deploy the device in the field.

I'm thinking I'll sell it on Camofire.

Camofire RIP. Still,

 

[MTGomer]

I agree that that was probably for the best.

I often dream of being an asshole in a situation like that, because it is a happy thought to put someone in their place when I'm so clearly in the right. But when confronted with someone face to face I usually try to de-escalate as well. And then, in the days to come, I ponder all the wonderful zingers and retorts I could have made.

I guess I just have to settle for being an asshole online sometimes instead.

I’m normally this way but recently had the opportunity to see a confrontation coming due to my Client pre warning me about what a menace their neighbor was and had my response ready.

While on my clients property, I could see the usual suspect type , (boomer/snow bird/retiree) , approaching me with an angry face and then the usual question that generation asks “can I help you!?“

Without missing a beat or even looking up at him, I said “yes, there’s a Home Depot bucket on my tailgate with some supplies in it, pull out the right decked drawer and get the 5 pound sledgehammer out, place it in the bucket and bring it over here to me. Thanks.”

You’d of thought he was back in SE Asia and was just hit by Vietkong artillery. Absolute shell shocked stupefied look on his face while he tried to compose himself.

 

[mtmuley]

I’m normally this way but recently had the opportunity to see a confrontation coming due to my Client pre warning me about what a menace their neighbor was and had my response ready.

While on my clients property, I could see the usual suspect type , (boomer/snow bird/retiree) , approaching me with an angry face and then the usual question that generation asks “can I help you!?“

Without missing a beat or even looking up at him, I said “yes, there’s a Home Depot bucket on my tailgate with some supplies in it, pull out the right decked drawer and get the 5 pound sledgehammer out, place it in the bucket and bring it over here to me. Thanks.”

You’d of thought he was back in SE Asia and was just hit by Vietkong artillery. Absolute shell shocked stupefied look on his face while he tried to compose himself.

Stupid stereotyped boomer. mtmuley