WILD BISON ON THE MONTANA PRAIRIE? MAYBE. BUT WHAT IS WILD? by Ron Moody

[Dinkshooter]

Here is a translation for the Eastern Tenderfoots:

Any time a western person starts throwing x number of generations that they've been there it pretty much only means they know what is best for their bank account. X generation means little and certainly does not mean they have more insight compared to you as to what is best for the wildlife populations in any given area. In fact the only thing it means is their great, great, great grandfather got off the banana boat before yours and was LUCKY enough to make it out west before yours.

 

[dustinf]

Here is a translation for the Eastern Tenderfoots:

Any time a western person starts throwing x number of generations that they've been there it pretty much only means they know what is best for their bank account. X generation means little and certainly does not mean they have more insight compared to you as to what is best for the wildlife populations in any given area. In fact the only thing it means is their great, great, great grandfather got off the banana boat before yours and was LUCKY enough to make it out west before yours.

Thanks for the clarification.

Is any of this going to make my double cheeseburgers cost more than 99¢?

 

[mtmiller]

There will be no hunting on the APR within the next few years...sure right now they allow some hunting, but not for much longer. The former head of APF/APR said as much(might be why he quit them).

Eric, curious who this person is?

 

[BigHornRam]

BigHorn Ram, Cant sleep so I turned the computer back on, read through a 4 part powerpoint presentation, his testimony on the bark beetles, an interview about forest health and fire (glad he wasnt afraid of the benefits of fire in land ecology), and some climate change and forestry papers. His bounty paper was a good idea - innovative. Thanks for the reference. I enjoyed it.

Kat,

Glad you enjoyed my reference.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Funny thing about bison and wolves...somebody always knows what is "best" for those of us who have lived here for 5-6 generations....apparently we are expendables.
There is unfortunately no room for "free-range bison". This is simply a fact...not that with the right amount of $$ enough of us can't be bought out and this pipe dream realized....but guess what, those of you who are GULLIBLE enough to believe that you will be "hunting wild bison" better think again... at first there will be limited entry permits, but after a few short years the grizzly bears and wolves will be doing the hunting. There will be no hunting on the APR within the next few years...sure right now they allow some hunting, but not for much longer. The former head of APF/APR said as much(might be why he quit them).

Bison are not suited for a severe N.E. Mt winter either, this is why they migrated south. Certainly the bison is more hearty than domestic cattle are, but God did not equip them w/ snowshovels. He equipped them w/ GPS and they went south for the winter...just like the Native American's did...even they were smart enough not to winter in this foresaken Klondike s.o.b. that we call home.

Eric, with all due respect, I think you just jumped the shark.

Bison heads are snowshovels. They are designed to move deep amounts of snow in order for buffalo to get to forage underneath. It's how the good lord designed them. If you want o prove that bison migrated out of the area, then show your work. As for bison leaving the Hi-line in favor of calmer climes, I suppose if we suspend disbelief for so long that we ignore bison that winter around West Yellowstone (which has a much more wintery winter than the hi-line) we can follow that. As one bison manager I know said: When it's 20 degrees and the wind is howling, those big shaggies just sit around when it's going to cool down."

By going forward with the process outlined in SB 212 (Co-sponsored by Senator Brenden, IIRC), then we can find out if there is enough room for a small herd of wild bison. I think it's awfully presumptuous to say that there isn't any room in all of Montana for a wild herd.

APR is open for hunters. They have 45,000 acres enrolled in block management and over 200,000 acres of public land that has been closed off, now open for hunters. The They just opened another campground with tent & RV camping after putting considerable effort and money into developing these areas. Who spends hundreds of thousands of dollars providing developed camping if they plan on closing down all access? APR has been the best thing for access in Phillips and Valley counties in years.

Anti-bison folks, on the other hand, are closing off acres and acres of private land because they don't like how democracy works.

I do agree that some folks think that the opinion of those who live in Eastern MT doesn't matter. That's not my opinion nor is it the opinion of those I know who actively work on this issue. What they all get tired of is the "my way or the highway" attitude that doesn't allow for any reasonable conversation. The FWP process offers everyone a seat at the table and puts a mission and a focus on the conversation. Unfortunately, extremists won't be happy unless we shut everything down, including conversations among neighbors. I fully support having the conversation and finding a resolution to the issue. Hell, it the Utards can figure it out, why can't Montanans?

 

[Nemont]

APR is open for hunters. They have 45,000 acres enrolled in block management and over 200,000 acres of public land that has been closed off, now open for hunters.
?

Ben,

With all due respect can you prove there was no access to this 200,000 acres of public lands prior to APR buying the deeded properties? May want to look at what properties already had an FWP access easement attached to them prior to APR purchasing them.

If this is the propaganda being spread and you are buying it then there is some real disinformation being used.

I am a capitalist, if APR has the money and outbids everyone else, good on them as long as the process is transparent, their money is as green as anybody else's. What I don't buy is holding them out as an example of opening up hundreds of thousand of acres that were never closed to access.

Nemont

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben,

With all due respect can you prove there was no access to this 200,000 acres of public lands prior to APR buying the deeded properties? May want to look at what properties already had an FWP access easement attached to them prior to APR purchasing them.

If this is the propaganda being spread and you are buying it then there is some real disinformation being used.

I am a capitalist, if APR has the money and outbids everyone else, good on them as long as the process is transparent, their money is as green as anybody else's. What I don't buy is holding them out as an example of opening up hundreds of thousand of acres that were never closed to access.

Nemont

I certainly could be wrong about the 200,000 acres of public, just going by what I've been able to find out regarding purchased properties and what the access situation was before APR.

At any rate, the access issue isn't a winner for anti-bison folks.

 

[Nemont]

For instance the South Ranch unit of Page-Whitham L&C?

http://www.ffor.org/site/2012/08/pa...ch-under-lease-agreement-price-not-disclosed/

Yet there was an existing FWP CE on the South Ranch prior to APR ever even being formed.
http://fwp.mt.gov/fishing/siteDetail.html?id=283500

Just those greedy ranchers I guess closing public lands by entering into an CE with the FWP to allow access.

Nemont

 

[Ben Lamb]

I am a capitalist, if APR has the money and outbids everyone else, good on them as long as the process is transparent, their money is as green as anybody else's. What I don't buy is holding them out as an example of opening up hundreds of thousand of acres that were never closed to access.

Nemont

FYI - APR pays appraised price. That's what their board has set as a guideline. They've been outbid on properties a few times.

I'll ask some APR folks about the access issue. I know of a couple of properties that were closed to public access and one that chained a county road to keep everyone out. That road led to a pretty significant chunk of public land that was not accessible except from the water.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Nemont, for the sake of due diligence did you establish that the 200,000 acres of public land were accessible to the public previously? By characterizing Mr. Lamb's assertion as "propaganda" you are implying that it is false. Is it, in fact, "disinformation" which you can refute? If so, please do, as it is an important point you have expressed.

 

[Nemont]

I certainly could be wrong about the 200,000 acres of public, just going by what I've been able to find out regarding purchased properties and what the access situation was before APR.

At any rate, the access issue isn't a winner for anti-bison folks.

I think the Bison issue is already baked in the cake with what has taken place and there is nothing that anyone opposed to it can do about. The decision has already been made and the window dressing is just crossing T's and dotting I's before the plan is rolled out so the powers that be can say there was public support. It is just a process with a forgone conclusion.

I don't think anybody who wants wild bison gives two $h!ts what anybody in Valley or Phillips County thinks or wants. That is just the reality, there isn't enough population out here to make a bit difference.



Nemont

 

[Nemont]

Nemont, for the sake of due diligence did you establish that the 200,000 acres of public land were accessible to the public previously? By characterizing Mr. Lamb's assertion as "propaganda" you are implying that it is false. Is it, in fact, "disinformation" which you can refute? If so, please do, as it is an important point you have expressed.

Spend two seconds looking at a map and maybe the light bulb will come on.

Now go look at the county roads that lead to those areas.



I don't have to prove anything because there is no way 200,000 acres of public lands were closed in South Phillips or Valley County.

Nemont

 

[Nemont]

FYI - APR pays appraised price. That's what their board has set as a guideline. They've been outbid on properties a few times.

I'll ask some APR folks about the access issue. I know of a couple of properties that were closed to public access and one that chained a county road to keep everyone out. That road led to a pretty significant chunk of public land that was not accessible except from the water.

Just to be clear you are stating that a rancher blocked an county road in Phillips County and that was allowed to do so with without protest?

Is it a couple of properties or 200,000 acres? Is access by water considered inaccessible?

Nemont

 

[Ben Lamb]

Just to be clear you are stating that a rancher blocked an county road in Phillips County and that was allowed to do so with without protest?

Based on a conversation with someone I know to be credible, yes. Do you think that every closed road is known about?

Is it a couple of properties or 200,000 acres? Is access by water considered inaccessible?

200,000 acres is the approximate amount of leased land that APR has from the BLM. I very poorly worded my previous post regarding that land. It should have read: They have 200,000 acres of public land leased, some of which was closed to public access due to access restrictions by the previous landowner.

My sincere apologies for the misleading statement. Just laziness on my part.

 

[Nemont]

Ben

Fair enough.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think the Bison issue is already baked in the cake with what has taken place and there is nothing that anyone opposed to it can do about. The decision has already been made and the window dressing is just crossing T's and dotting I's before the plan is rolled out so the powers that be can say there was public support. It is just a process with a forgone conclusion.

I don't think anybody who wants wild bison gives two $h!ts what anybody in Valley or Phillips County thinks or wants. That is just the reality, there isn't enough population out here to make a bit difference.



Nemont

I would disagree with that. As someone who is working on the issue, there is a large amount of concern from the wildlife side that this issue is not going to go their way. I would also say that if FWP is doing what you say, legally they are in the wrong. Pre-decisional is the word. It makes for good rethoric, but not reality.

What I've repeatedly told everyone who would listen is that this is not a decision that should be made behind closed doors. Under the past admin, that might have happened. This administration isn't likely to operate that way.

In fact, if it was going to happen the way you said, then the meeting in Lewistown wouldn't have occurred, an EA would have already been written and we'd be discussing the new bison herd in MT and the resulting lawsuits. None of that has happened, and in fact, the opposite is occurring: FWP isn't rushing into anything regarding bison. Just ain't happening. In fact, what I'm hearing from livestock interests and gov't agency folks is that they found the meeting very helpful in not only understanding the issue better, but seeing a path towards consensus. The overriding sentiment I've heard was "This was good. It gives FWP an honest look at what the issues are and provides a framework for them to make a decision."

The meeting in Lewistown was to set the stage for future conversations, hopefully. But if the answer is just "No," then I think the people who are concerned about bison will be woefully represented. Just like if the pro-bison folks think the answer is "everywhere."

 

[Straight Arrow]

Thank-you both for clarification. The light is coming on now, albeit still fairly dim.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben

Fair enough.

Being wrong as often as I am, I've come to learn that being honest is the only option.

 

[Nemont]

I would disagree with that. As someone who is working on the issue, there is a large amount of concern from the wildlife side that this issue is not going to go their way. I would also say that if FWP is doing what you say, legally they are in the wrong. Pre-decisional is the word. It makes for good rethoric, but not reality.

What I've repeatedly told everyone who would listen is that this is not a decision that should be made behind closed doors. Under the past admin, that might have happened. This administration isn't likely to operate that way.

In fact, if it was going to happen the way you said, then the meeting in Lewistown wouldn't have occurred, an EA would have already been written and we'd be discussing the new bison herd in MT and the resulting lawsuits. None of that has happened, and in fact, the opposite is occurring: FWP isn't rushing into anything regarding bison. Just ain't happening. In fact, what I'm hearing from livestock interests and gov't agency folks is that they found the meeting very helpful in not only understanding the issue better, but seeing a path towards consensus. The overriding sentiment I've heard was "This was good. It gives FWP an honest look at what the issues are and provides a framework for them to make a decision."

The meeting in Lewistown was to set the stage for future conversations, hopefully. But if the answer is just "No," then I think the people who are concerned about bison will be woefully represented. Just like if the pro-bison folks think the answer is "everywhere."

Ben,

I guess I am a pessimist when it comes to our State Government and the decision making process they use.

Based on a conversation with someone I know to be credible, yes. Do you think that every closed road is known about?

I guess I can't say I know of every closed road but given the number of people from all over the country who hunt out there and can read maps It would flabbergast me that nobody would make a stink about a county road being chained shut during hunting season. I bet that I have driven almost all the roads out there at one time or another and I am trying to think of a road that I have seen that was chained shut. Or that somebody didn't raise h#ll about it being chained.
Nemont

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben,

I guess I am a pessimist when it comes to our State Government and the decision making process they use.

Fair enough.