What's Wrong With Elk Farms

[Michaelr]

Tom,..
On each of the threads that deal with game farms, you try to convince everybody that they are just super duper

It seems like the majority hate them, when you fail to convince them (with e-mails and posts) then you turn rude.
Maybe its time to except that most of us view game farms in the same light as poachers, child molesters, gay mens clubs, ect ect ect.

 

[Tom]

michaelr, There's people on both sides here, no majority. If we had a vote, it would even be a small minority that would vote. Its pretty obvious to me, many of those against it know very little about the positive side of it. If I'm rude, I'm sorry, when someone is rude to me, I'll be a little rude back. If there's a particularly rude thing you want me to face, name it. I don't expect to convince someone of anything, I just expect them to discuss it honestly. If you view a game farm shooter the same as a child molestor or a poacher, you are messed up in your thinking. You're real ingnorant in that thought, real hateful, or real rude, or maybe just having fun, who knows. One is legal in many places, the others are not, that's quite a difference you're trying to ignore because of your hate, I guess. Its not me being rude in pointing out that major difference, its factual, on that. Right? Legal versus illegal, may I point out that difference, sir?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 14:27: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

Tom said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One is legal in many places, the others are not, that's quite a difference you're trying to ignore because of your hate, I guess. Its not me being rude in pointing out that major difference, its factual, on that. Right? Legal versus illegal, may I point out that difference, sir? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT

I don't know how many times it has already been said, but just because something is legal doesn't mean it is ethical.
Have you read the artical by valarius geist that was posted?
That addressed all the issues much better than I would ever be able express them.
There is and always will be a great number of sportsmen that view penned, canned game farm, game ranches, hunts in a very poor light.
I for one don't like them, moosie and a few others do

I guess it all boils down to your own gut feelings.

 

[BuzzH]

If we're conducting a poll count me in with the "against game farms crowd".

Tom, if the game farms are so great, why do you spend so much energy and time having to defend them?

Just an honest question.

 

[Moosie]

Buzz.. I think your posts bashing them are about equal ?

Just a Honest Question ..

 

[Tom]

Well there's lots of places its legal, lots of people who think its ethical, and there's several record books that record animals from them. No place is it legal to child molest or poach that I know of, its an important difference that shows me the error in some thoughts of those who think high fence hunts are like poaching and child abuse. SCI, TGR, and ROE record animals, all have many editions, with thousands of entries in each edition, some from high fence places. B&C and P&Y do not have them from the high fence places.

I read the article, I commented on Geist above. At the beginning Geist makes the point that money corrupts, that sounds like a communist, money is bad. He gives no evidence that a transfer of wildlife is occuring, we still have public wildlife all over the place. He gives no evidence any transfer is devastating to wildlife. Its all a bunch of opinion from a scientist, who should be listened to, but who should provide some data too. No data there.

That ram DS got last year, couldn't be got on too many places, they're named for the Corsica Island in the Mediterranian and he got it for a few hundred dollars, an over the counter liscense. No draw, just came and hunted and got it. Geists article has no data like that. We could discuss parts of it in particular if you want. My view of it is that it makes all kinds of inuendoes and conclusions based on nothing that support them.

I've got to do some work. Later.

Buzz, I'm trying to explain its because a lot of people bashing them are haveing some messed up thoughts. That argument you're making there makes little sense. Its like saying, if slavery is bad, why would you have to fight the civil war or something like that. I'll go by reason and facts, not by number of words, get off of that argument. Its like the extremist Muslims too, if them terrorising non-Muslims is bad, why should we have to fight them. Since we have to fight them and spend a lot of our time and money, it sure doesn't make the terrorism right. Get off of those type arguments.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 15:09: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

Tom- I'd have to see some pretty strong evidence that the ram DS shot is all that much like those found native in the Mediteranean. Based on your statement, that would mean that no other lines are species were used in the breeding to get a desired trait, ie different coat or larger horns. I seriously doubt that is the case, but I've been wrong before...

 

[Tom]

1_pointer, I think he got a Corsican, from what I remember. Corsican is one of the most common exotic rams down here, they originated and are named after the island they originated from, Corsica, its in the Mediterranian. There's subspecies of Corsican ram color variations to, all from crosses with Mouflon and Barbados. White corsican's are nicknamed, Texas dall, black ones are Hawaiian blacks, Corsican's are a mixture of black, brown, and white with dark horns. There's even a painted desert ram now in ROE for several years, it has marbled colored horns. Corsican ram is a registered trademark of the YO Ranch in Texas. You want the references or what? Its in a couple of books I know, Exotics on the Range, by Dr.Mungall and Dr.Sheffield, 1994. Is that what you wanted.


I didn't see why you said:
"Based on your statement, that would mean that no other lines are species were used in the breeding to get a desired trait, ie different coat or larger horns." All I said was they're named after that island, I don't have pictures from the island, but mouflon are over there. Aren't
barbados there too? Corsican is a spontaneous cross of those two, as I understand it. What part of it bothers you, I thought it was history, i.e. pretty well known?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 16:14: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[Deerslayer]

Danr.....in the words of Garfield the Cat, "I resemble that remark"

Now you don't think I'm critical of all them folks you listed because I think we should slow the influx of both legal and illegal aliens do you? I sure hope not. Hell, it is a problem obviously recognized by our gummit as well, and America needs to worry more than just about doing a dragnet of all the immigrants hoping to catch a few brilliant ones. Let's take care of our own first is all I was saying.

Back on Topic. Yeah Tom. That was a sure nuff trophy Corsican Ram I took ......still can't believe that thing cost me $360

I had trouble swallowing shooting a farm animal for the $160, and then the hidden blue tag doubled that....I still kick myself to this day for not simply going down there cooking for you guys and drinking beer. I was in fact so proud of it, that to this day those horns are laying out in the pasture, hide still attached. The horses kick it around occasionally.
But I did receive an embossed certificate certifying my "trophy"...along with opportunity to send in yet another $50 to get it recognized in your record book. But I thought better about throwing good money after bad

Hey Tom.....I know where a record book trophy Corsican you can by dirt cheap!

Just let me know....

 

[FEW]

UHHH what the hell does a gay club have to do with fenced hunting? I think you should keep your personal life out of this.

 

[Tom]

DS, if you got a certificate, it will be in the new edition of ROE, which comes out this Sept. The invitation to buy a plaque is what the extra money is for. I don't want to buy your Corsican, it sounds like you got a $360 horse kicker there. At least people enjoyed your meal. Is it true, that Cajuns spend about as much time cooking on hunting trips as they do hunting? Every La guy I meet cooks a lot while hunting, it seems like, its a major part of their hunting, any comments?

 

[Michaelr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>UHHH what the hell does a gay club have to do with fenced hunting? I think you should keep your personal life out of this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

go see the pics in fireside, Looks like a gay club went to a fenced hunt too me

http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=004154

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-06-2003 11:35: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>

 

[danr55]

Michael, Does your Platypus not have a sense of humor? Don't be so homophobic... It's not contageuos...

 

[Michaelr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Michael, Does your Platypus not have a sense of humor? Don't be so homophobic... It's not contageuos...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that what moosie told you?

better get yourself to the clinic!!!!

 

[1_pointer]

Tom- What I was questioning was your, maybe unintended, assertion that the ram was the same found in its native habitat. That is what I was trying to make clear.

 

[FEW]

That was scary!!

 

[Deerslayer]

Yeah Tom, I'll comment on that. I in fact do all the cooking in my camps. I do two or three camps a year, and usualyy wind up managing to kill a few wild critters in spite of all that time I spend cooking.

I'm not sure what the correlation between my cooking and my hunting was for you, though I am sure you intended as some sort of slam.
I'll let the guys that eat my cooking defend it, while I defend my hunting of truely wild animals, with a reasonable degree of success I might add, at least for a Coonass who spend most of his time cooking in camp

 

[Deerslayer]

Oh, and Tom. I am sure I would have to give up some of my cooking responsibilities if I changes over from hunting in the wild to hunting your game farms all the time. No way could I hope to be successful on a regular basis trying to cook AND shoot the farm animals.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Tom, you said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>At the beginning Geist makes the point that money corrupts, that sounds like a communist, money is bad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I'm a communist then, along with a lot of other hunters who don't feel that commercialization of our wildlife is the right thing to do.

From the Geist article:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The colossal success of this unique system of wildlife management is based on five primary policies:

Wildlife is owned in law and in fact by the public, with the private ownership of wildlife severely restricted.

Most markets in dead wildlife have been abolished, removing an enormous incentive to turn illegally killed wildlife into cash in hidden markets.

Wildlife surplus is allocated by law, not by the pocketbook, social status or land ownership.

Wildlife can only be killed for cause such as for food, fur or protection of life and property by those carrying licenses, and

Wildlife is managed using the best available information, based on sound, scientific knowledge and research, with input from the public (often referred to as "the Roosevelt Doctrine")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you think game farms fit in with these basic wildlife management policies?

Another quote from Geist: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From the outset, legislatures granted some exceptions to these basic policies. For example, by passing a strict trespass act, Texas gave de facto control over wildlife to landowners, allowing allocation of wildlife by the market and denying many "shareholders" in wildlife access to their public resource.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To tell you the truth, this is what sounds Communist to me. What do you think Tom?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Another quote from Geist:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's important for private individuals who care about wildlife to receive some meaningful financial return for supporting that wildlife on their lands. The public should not get a free ride on private lands that help sustain public wildlife. However, such compensations should not jeopardize the public ownership of wildlife, scientific-based wildlife management or hunting opportunities for the general public. Pay-to-hunt businesses offer a very appealing product to people who can afford to pay the price. But market driven hunting operations effectively alienate most American hunters from hunting "their" wildlife. They also change the nature and perception of hunting from an act of securing food from the land to a frivolous pastime of the affluent and take us closer to a European model of wildlife management.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>