What's Wrong With Elk Farms

[Washington Hunter]

Ten Bears, here's another article for your education (and Dan too.) I hope this helps you to understand the issue.


What's Wrong With Elk Farms:


Loss of Wildlife Habitat

High fences designed to keep domestic elk and deer in an enclosed area. Consequently they can also prevent free ranging elk and deer from utilizing winter/summer range, calving areas and can fragment or eliminate vital migration corridors.



Harbors and Spread of Diseases

Game ranches have experienced numerous problems with diseases such as brucellosis, tuberculosis and Chronic Wasting Disease. Some of these diseases can, and have, spread into wild herds of deer and elk through escapement, physical contact and inter game ranch sale or trade of animals.



Genetic Degradation to free ranging elk and deer herds

Domestic deer and elk are bred to enhance profit driven markets such as larger antlers for velveting and shooter bulls for "canned" hunts. They can be hybrid with other species or sub species to achieve these desired traits. Domestic deer and elk are also generally not afraid of humans. These hybrid elk and deer species that are not afraid of humans can escape into the wild and breed with free ranging deer and elk herds, thus degrading the genetic diversity of wild free ranging herds.



Commercialization

Commercial marketing of elk and deer parts can lead to an increase in poaching causing wildlife enforcement agencies, with already tight budgets, to be over burdened. Poaching also forces wildlife agencies to alter their wildlife management practices and reduce tag numbers for legitimate hunting.



Domestication

Elk and deer represent the wildness that is slowly eroding from the North American landscape. To some people, elk and deer are symbols of wilderness not to be penned up and exploited.

Privatization

Free ranging elk and deer herds are part of the public commons. They are managed by state wildlife agencies for the enjoyment by the public. The privatization of elk and deer is a violation of public trust. It can lead to the decline of public support and concern for wildlife and wild places. It degrades very successful national and state wildlife management strategies based on the public's input and sound science. Privatization is essentially a European system of wildlife management driven by commercial markets.

The Cruelty of Velveting

Antler velvet is sold to Asian markets as an aphrodisiac and elixir usually demanding upwards to $110.00 per pound.

"Velveting" or the harvesting of blood engorged antlers is not for the faint of heart. Essentially the animal is shuttled down a narrow passageway where a device called a Stockstill Immobilizer clamps the elk. Then two electrodes are secured to the elk. One on a fold of the anus and the other on the lip. A switch is flipped sending an electrical current through the elk immobilizing him. Then the antlers are cut off with a saw and the bloody stubs get a dose of iodine.

This is the web site where I found that article, in case you want to learn more:
www.madelk.org/index.htm

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-28-2003 10:41: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

My question would be...

WHAT ISN'T WRONG WITH ELK FARMS??

 

[danr55]

Let me preface this with the statement "I do not support nor endorse game farms or canned hunts for elk." I do find the proposal to violate individual land owners rights even less appealing. This country would exist without Elk. I doubt it would last long with the guarantees made by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Based on that argument and that argument alone, my response follows:

Loss of Wildlife Habitat

High fences designed to keep domestic elk and deer in an enclosed area. Consequently they can also prevent free ranging elk and deer from utilizing winter/summer range, calving areas and can fragment or eliminate vital migration corridors.

—Fences around private property are the right of the property owner. Individual rights, as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States outweighs the concerns about the welfare of animals. They may impinge on migration routes, but so do housing developments, freeways, and fences installed for reasons other than retaining Elk.


Harbors and Spread of Diseases

Game ranches have experienced numerous problems with diseases such as brucellosis, tuberculosis and Chronic Wasting Disease. Some of these diseases can, and have, spread into wild herds of deer and elk through escapement, physical contact and inter game ranch sale or trade of animals.

—Although close proximity can permit or even enhance the spread of disease, tuberculosis and brucellosis has been present in herds of wild ungulates since the identification of the bacilli. They are reactive to the presence of the disease, not causative.


Genetic Degradation to free ranging elk and deer herds

Domestic deer and elk are bred to enhance profit driven markets such as larger antlers for velveting and shooter bulls for "canned" hunts. They can be hybrid with other species or sub species to achieve these desired traits. Domestic deer and elk are also generally not afraid of humans. These hybrid elk and deer species that are not afraid of humans can escape into the wild and breed with free ranging deer and elk herds, thus degrading the genetic diversity of wild free ranging herds.

– That seems scientifically incorrect. It is difficult to understand how the introduction of a new genetic strain can degrade genetic diversity. By definition the addition of new strains increases genetic diversity and lends strength to a line.


Commercialization

Commercial marketing of elk and deer parts can lead to an increase in poaching causing wildlife enforcement agencies, with already tight budgets, to be over burdened. Poaching also forces wildlife agencies to alter their wildlife management practices and reduce tag numbers for legitimate hunting.

– The market for deer and elk parts for use in medicinal preparations and other applications is older than this country. The presence of a large supply base as is found in commercial operations widens the market and drives the price for these items down. Remove that supply and the demand will stay the same. That will drive the price up. If price is the motivation behind poaching, poaching would increase due to the greater reward. If price is not the motivator, then the absence or presence of commercial operations has no bearing on the poaching problem. In addition, poaching is a separate problem. It is neither created by the existence of commercial operations, nor prevented by their absence.


Domestication

Elk and deer represent the wildness that is slowly eroding from the North American landscape. To some people, elk and deer are symbols of wilderness not to be penned up and exploited.


– Although this is a strong emotional motivator, it has little relevance in an argument of statue law or scientific fact. The greatest cause for the disappearance of the great American wildness is the propagation of the less than great American. In the foreseeable future, the population of the United States will begin to double in less than 25 years.

Privatization

Free ranging elk and deer herds are part of the public commons. They are managed by state wildlife agencies for the enjoyment by the public. The privatization of elk and deer is a violation of public trust. It can lead to the decline of public support and concern for wildlife and wild places. It degrades very successful national and state wildlife management strategies based on the public's input and sound science. Privatization is essentially a European system of wildlife management driven by commercial markets.

– They are for the intents and purposes of this argument, separate. Public wildlife herds are public wildlife herds. They are not raided to provide stock for private herds. Private Elk herds should be maintained by the owner and should not be subject to public domain. The two should be mutually exclusive.

The Cruelty of Velveting

Antler velvet is sold to Asian markets as an aphrodisiac and elixir usually demanding upwards to $110.00 per pound.

"Velveting" or the harvesting of blood engorged antlers is not for the faint of heart. Essentially the animal is shuttled down a narrow passageway where a device called a Stockstill Immobilizer clamps the elk. Then two electrodes are secured to the elk. One on a fold of the anus and the other on the lip. A switch is flipped sending an electrical current through the elk immobilizing him. Then the antlers are cut off with a saw and the bloody stubs get a dose of iodine.


– Agreed that this is a terrible practice. I would support an effort to outlaw it as inhumane. It still does not justify public control of private property. National organizations like the SPCA have political activists in place to deal with these types of practices. There are laws that dictate how stock will be treated. Enforce those laws and eliminate the inhumane treatment of stock animals. By the way, have you ever seen how a bull is turned into a steer?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-28-2003 11:45: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

That private property rights argument is so lame. Is it ok to pollute air and water on your property? No, I don't think so. Same thing should be true of game farms. Basically, game farms pollute wildlife the same as polluted air and water on one person's property pollutes the surrounding air and water. It's just ridiculous to say that because somebody owns the property they they have the right to do anything and everything that they wish to do with that property. Dan, using your logic, meth labs and marijuana farms should be allowed also, as long as it is on your property.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

I wouldn't care if you have pot farms and meth labs on your property so long as it stays on your property. If you want to do drugs, I don't care as long as you do not affect anyone else's rights.

 

[BuzzH]

Danr said, "– That seems scientifically incorrect. It is difficult to understand how the introduction of a new genetic strain can degrade genetic diversity. By definition the addition of new strains increases genetic diversity and lends strength to a line."

I disagree 100 percent with that statement. Lets compare wild North American elk and Red deer. All you have to do is look at the timing of the rut, the condition of each animal, to tell that red deer genes wont "strengthen the line". Ask any biologist if they think its a good idea to release a few thousand red deer into our wild elk herds, see what you get for an answer. You're displacing and disrupting genetics and the outcome could be devastating to wild elk.
Danr said, "– The market for deer and elk parts for use in medicinal preparations and other applications is older than this country. The presence of a large supply base as is found in commercial operations widens the market and drives the price for these items down. Remove that supply and the demand will stay the same. That will drive the price up. If price is the motivation behind poaching, poaching would increase due to the greater reward. If price is not the motivator, then the absence or presence of commercial operations has no bearing on the poaching problem. In addition, poaching is a separate problem. It is neither created by the existence of commercial operations, nor prevented by their absence."

UHHHH, wrong again. Its much easier to move illegal animal parts when another legal market exists, especially one as unregulated as the trade in elk parts from game farms. Any time that wildlife has a price on its head, and its commercialized, there has been huge problems.
Danr said "– Although this is a strong emotional motivator, it has little relevance in an argument of statue law or scientific fact. The greatest cause for the disappearance of the great American wildness is the propagation of the less than great American. In the foreseeable future, the population of the United States will begin to double in less than 25 years."

Why does there have to statuate law to make a statement like that. Half the stuff you post Danr, is based on a hell of a lot less than emmotional motivator. I along with many people have a huge moral and ethical problem with domesticating the wild animals we have left. I dont see anything wrong with keeping part of whats left wild in America...wild forever. Do we have to tame every last fricking thing? Why? There isnt a need for it.


Danr said, "– They are for the intents and purposes of this argument, separate. Public wildlife herds are public wildlife herds. They are not raided to provide stock for private herds. Private Elk herds should be maintained by the owner and should not be subject to public domain. The two should be mutually exclusive."

Wrong again danr, the wild herds are in fact raided, probably a lot more than you care to realize by game farmers. Its happened and elk farmers have been found guilty of it in Canada and the United States. You're also wrong about the classification of elk, they are NOT MUTUALLY exclusive in the case of MT at least. They are ALL considered wildlife and thats why MT game farms were administered by the Fish and Game. Also the hunters of MT funded the administration costs, so they didnt even pay for their own industry.


Last word on this for me is that game farms definately cause many moral and ethical questions about their validity. I dont like them and would vote them out of any state I live in. They also are a real threat to hunting and whats left of the wilds in America. No amount of technical talking or defense of them will change my mind that there is a need for them. There is not one good reason for them in my opinion, not one.

Game farms are pathetic and wrong for all the reasons that WH provided, and thats final.

 

[Washington Hunter]

I'm guessing you don't know much about meth labs then. Don't you know they create a lot of hazardous waste from the production of meth and that stuff is usually dumped somewhere on public land and in public water?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Dan, here is an article by Valerius Geist that I think you really need to read. If it won't convert you to anti-game farm, then I guess there's just no hope for you. Geist is a well known wildlife biologist, and he knows what he's talking about.

www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarm/elkprofit.html

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Read my post again, Washington Hunter. So long as it stays on your property, you can sit in toxic waste and simmer and melt your brain. I don't care. Once it affects others, then it's a different matter.

 

[Michaelr]

Great Read

 

[Washington Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Once it affects others, then it's a different matter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh good, so you do agree that elk farms are wrong?

 

[BuzzH]

I'd have to think so since it does affect others.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Specious reasoning, double speak and twist others' words. No facts. In actuality, I agree with I-143, but my reason has to do with the fact that hunting license revenue was being used to regulate the game farms and to correct problems caused by poor management of the farms - not by charging the farms themselves. The farms should have been forced to solve problems at their expense and fund their own regulation through licensing and taxation.

Again, I point out that the self-righteous, holier-than-thou "I'm a real hunter and you're not" attitude will go along ways toward keeping our sport alive.

 

[danr55]

I knew Dr. Geist and I understand how he feels about game farms. You guys aren't reading or not understanding or choose not to understand the argument I am putting forth. I am not arguing the right of wrong of game farms. Ethics and morals are personal issues and you will find as many differences as you will find fingerprints. The personal property argument is not a lame argument. It's something that lots of people better than I have died to protect. When are you self centered country folk going to realize that this has nothing to do with Elk. They are just animals. If they all died tomorrow, the world would be sadder, but it would go on. Lift your heads out of the here and now and stretch your necks... look around you... see what happens when one person looses thier individual rights....

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Sadly, they don't care about any of that, Danr. They romanticize an animal and denigrate human rights. Their way is the only way...

They fail to see, perhaps because they have never experienced the third world, that the very rights they are willing to take away from others are what make this country what it is.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Well Dan...life would go on without elk farms too. And the world would be happier instead of sadder

The fact is there is no need for anybody to raise elk in captivity. If somebody wants to use their land as a ranch, they can raise cattle. Or pigs, or sheep, or horses, or llamas, or bison, or all of those. That's a lot of choices and they are free to make a living off of their land. So how do you figure their property rights are being taken away? We have good populations of wild elk in this country, and most people want them to remain wild.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Calif. Hunter, what's sad is hunters that support the domestication of wildlife. Now that is really sad. I would think that hunters as a group would be against something that affects hunting in such a negative way. It's too bad more hunters don't have the respect for wildlife that they should.

 

[BuzzH]

WH, dont try to argue with the morality of issues with people without any ethics or morals, its pointless.

Danr and Cali, you both need to get a grip for gods sake...there is nothing about 143 that takes property, not one thing. It was legally challenged by Len Wallace on just that, taking of property, to the tune of a 100 million dollar lawsuit. He lost and so will anyone else who tries to sue on those grounds. The law was passed legally and reviewed by many attorneys on both sides of the issue, it was challenged in court and upheld, what else is there to say? Where and how is 143 taking property?

If you're both so damn smart and so sure its not legal, I bet Len Wallace and the other elk ranchers could use your advice and money in trying to over-turn it. I guess your both smarter than the courts and legal professionals that deal with constitutional law? Maybe they need your advice as well.

You both talk like your educated, but I have to wonder how well you understand the legal system in the United States.

Carry on.

 

[Moosie]

I'm with Danr On this one.. For every reason they give for Dis-wanting Game farms.. there is a Just answer and a answer in Rebutt for all the quotes... And some of the Stuff was Flat out LAME in the Defending the Anti-game-farm.....

I also Agree with Buzz that there is no changing sides, Everyone knows what they think they do and that they're right.. And only I AM

BTW, WHo's going on the Buffalo hunt/shoot (CANNED) with me.. Because next year at the latest I'm slaying, Shooting, killing, Wacking, Cruely maming, pushing, wrestling... Or whatever you call it to pull gods Spirit out of one to death... Well, Thats what I'll do

And you can bash them all you want but it's legal and I'm there !!!!

 

[danr55]

WH/Buzz, I agree that there is no reason for anyone to raise elk in captivity. Is there any reason for them not to raise elk in captivity? You guys have to get past the issue of Elk. They are little more than a big dumb animal. Slighlty smarter than a cow or a horse, but cursed or blessed with magnificent antlers and great meat. You want a real hunting challenge? Go hunt someone who's hunting you back. That's about as exciting as it gets... Placing the care of animals above the rights of human beings is exactly what the PETA folks do. They believe, as you two preach, that animals are special and they deserve priority above the wants, likes and dislikes of people. As long as you maintain that attitude, you are incapable of seeing beyond the end of your own arm.

Oscar, If you aren't hunting buff until next year, I'm going for sure... Where do I send a check and for how much?