Point Creep
Well-known member
I forgot..
Last edited:
What's Wrong With Elk Farms
- Thread starter Washington Hunter
- Start date
Bullhound
New member
Danr & calihunter,
I kind of enjoyed Greenhorn's analagy. Sorry, I kant reed fast enuf or think fast enuf to cum up with such witty remrks. Besides, ifn I waste to much time learning my a,b,c's I aint got time to beat the wife.
On a serious note........Oh hell, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I would like one of you to answer my question if you would.
I kind of enjoyed Greenhorn's analagy. Sorry, I kant reed fast enuf or think fast enuf to cum up with such witty remrks. Besides, ifn I waste to much time learning my a,b,c's I aint got time to beat the wife.
On a serious note........Oh hell, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I would like one of you to answer my question if you would.
It ain't gonna happen Bull... That question would make them think and reason.
I beleive in our lifetimes we will see the end of the "real" hunting in the USA. Mostly b/c the antis have got all the sportsmen divided on all these little issues and we cannabalize out those that are SOOOOO revolting. It won't be long before there is no one left to stand up for our side and we'll just be gone.
I beleive in our lifetimes we will see the end of the "real" hunting in the USA. Mostly b/c the antis have got all the sportsmen divided on all these little issues and we cannabalize out those that are SOOOOO revolting. It won't be long before there is no one left to stand up for our side and we'll just be gone.
Moosie
Grand poopa
I'll answer for ya !!!
"Would you give a shit if the only hunting to be done anymore was on a game farm/ranch where the animals are held in by a fence?"
YES, I'd give a shit, but, it will only end up that way if we don't fight for ALL hunting...the quicker we fight amongst ourselfes as hunters, the Quicker it will end up that way..
Becasue We all know Eventually it will get that bad with the LAck of land and the more people we have on earth... LEt's look at the stats on how many TONS and Acres of Concrete get poured Each hour.. I don't have the Stats but it's ALOT !!
I kind of like the way it is now, There is the option to hunt animals on a ranch, And there is public land that people can hunt, I still don't see the Problem ? And yes Ithica, I went and read it
"Would you give a shit if the only hunting to be done anymore was on a game farm/ranch where the animals are held in by a fence?"
YES, I'd give a shit, but, it will only end up that way if we don't fight for ALL hunting...the quicker we fight amongst ourselfes as hunters, the Quicker it will end up that way..
Becasue We all know Eventually it will get that bad with the LAck of land and the more people we have on earth... LEt's look at the stats on how many TONS and Acres of Concrete get poured Each hour.. I don't have the Stats but it's ALOT !!
I kind of like the way it is now, There is the option to hunt animals on a ranch, And there is public land that people can hunt, I still don't see the Problem ? And yes Ithica, I went and read it
LA- I'm guessing you predicting the end of game management also? Beings that hunting is the only way certain herds are managed, in addition to the money it generates I don't think it will ever end. But, there will be some wholesale changes and IMO not for the better if we as a collective group don't get more organized.
Bullhound
New member
Moosie,
I don't really care if some schmuck wants to go behind a fence to kill a big fat bull elk. Nothing personal Moosie and I'm not saying you're a fat ass.
My problem with them is the fear that the controls will not be there like they should be, and the repercussions.
I don't really care if some schmuck wants to go behind a fence to kill a big fat bull elk. Nothing personal Moosie and I'm not saying you're a fat ass.
My problem with them is the fear that the controls will not be there like they should be, and the repercussions.
Moosie
Grand poopa
Bullhound, what ? I'm not fat ?!?! But I do have a PLUMP fetish like Greeny was talking about !!!!
Bullhound
New member
I'm not too sure what the "plump fetish" thing is all about................and I don't think I want to find out.
Calif. Hunter
Active member
C'mon, Bullhound, did you really expect me to answer such a set up question as "will you give a shit when..." ? (That was the point of my "When did you stop beating your wife?" analogy - it's a no win question. Would you give a shit if I stole your car?)
When that becomes the only way to hunt, I'll do it, if I am still alive then. I won't like that being my only option, but I'll do it. So, obviously, I will "give a shit."
1-pointer - do you really think hunting survives because it is sound game management? Think - government hunters. They already shoot Nutria with silenced .22s at night in some areas so the public isn't disturbed by the sight or thought of killing. The same thing happens in some areas for deer - they spotlight them and shoot them with silencers in the head. The people don't want their lawns or bushes munched, but don't want to think about killing the deer - so the government hires contractors to do it for them without disturbing anyone. When the citizens wake up, the bodies have been hauled away and the blood washed away, too.
California is eradicating the hogs on some of the channel islands with government hunters - no sport hunters allowed on some of them. Same thing in city and state parks around the Bay Area.
Don't count on game management as a reason to keep hunting. It's an argument, sure. But one that can be overcome easily.
What's next? Bowhunting, because it takes the animal too long to bleed out? Or it runs for hundreds of yards before dropping? Or as Moosie pointed, shooting poor old Yogi the bear with his head in a barrel eating donuts? How about hound hunting? That's already been banned in several states.
That's how you get somewhere...one step at a time.
When that becomes the only way to hunt, I'll do it, if I am still alive then. I won't like that being my only option, but I'll do it. So, obviously, I will "give a shit."
1-pointer - do you really think hunting survives because it is sound game management? Think - government hunters. They already shoot Nutria with silenced .22s at night in some areas so the public isn't disturbed by the sight or thought of killing. The same thing happens in some areas for deer - they spotlight them and shoot them with silencers in the head. The people don't want their lawns or bushes munched, but don't want to think about killing the deer - so the government hires contractors to do it for them without disturbing anyone. When the citizens wake up, the bodies have been hauled away and the blood washed away, too.
California is eradicating the hogs on some of the channel islands with government hunters - no sport hunters allowed on some of them. Same thing in city and state parks around the Bay Area.
Don't count on game management as a reason to keep hunting. It's an argument, sure. But one that can be overcome easily.
What's next? Bowhunting, because it takes the animal too long to bleed out? Or it runs for hundreds of yards before dropping? Or as Moosie pointed, shooting poor old Yogi the bear with his head in a barrel eating donuts? How about hound hunting? That's already been banned in several states.
That's how you get somewhere...one step at a time.
Bullhound
New member
Calihunter,
I'll say this one more time. My CONCERNS are that the controls measures will not be kept in place to keep from fugin up the wild elk population. We're supposed to count on the honest business practices of these people? We've already seen cases that scare me a bit. That's where my CONCERNS come from.
Now leave me alone, I got to go beat the wife!
I'll say this one more time. My CONCERNS are that the controls measures will not be kept in place to keep from fugin up the wild elk population. We're supposed to count on the honest business practices of these people? We've already seen cases that scare me a bit. That's where my CONCERNS come from.
Now leave me alone, I got to go beat the wife!
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Cali, you keep talking about hunting being taken away one step at a time...bear baiting, hound hunting, bow hunting. Well, those are methods of hunting, and yes it is sad to see those being outlawed in some states. But, shooting elk inside a fence IS NOT hunting! So therefore, nothing is being taken away from hunting. Pretty simple really.
Calif. Hunter
Active member
But you admit you shot a bear in the butt while he was scarfing garbage left out for him? Simple for simple minds, perhaps. I guess because it was free and someone else paid the guy who was feeding Yogi it was okay? You got a snowmobile ride to where he said, "Now sit here and the bear will be by shortly." How is that different from shaking the feed bucket for the elk on the ranch?
WH, I don't know if you are taking a simplistic view because you are irritated or if you really don't understand the precepts of the Constitution and the foundation of Government in this country. The basis of our freedoms and the limits of our freedoms, as individuals, are the freedoms and the rights of every other American. Individual freedom should only be limited by the individual freedoms of others. That means that you should be free to do as you wish, as long as you don't infringe on the freedoms of anyone else. If you choose to stand naked in your yard and howl at the moon, that should be your right, as long as your howling doesn't bother anyone.
In your little example, polluting the air and the water infringes on others right to clean air and clean water. So the answer to your question is no... Anything you do on your land the effects the rights of others should be limited to that effect. Raising captive elk on private land does not inhibit your right to hunt free ranging elk on public land. Hence, it should be permitted. If you choose to raise elk on your land and you choose to allow others to come and shoot those elk for a price, that's your choice. As long as it doesn't harm anyone else. (Your opinion is governed by the same rules. You have a right to it, just don't feel that that is sufficient reason to impose your beliefs on me.)
It's not complicated, but it's not simple either. The interpretation of these boundries is probably the most difficult point of law.
In your little example, polluting the air and the water infringes on others right to clean air and clean water. So the answer to your question is no... Anything you do on your land the effects the rights of others should be limited to that effect. Raising captive elk on private land does not inhibit your right to hunt free ranging elk on public land. Hence, it should be permitted. If you choose to raise elk on your land and you choose to allow others to come and shoot those elk for a price, that's your choice. As long as it doesn't harm anyone else. (Your opinion is governed by the same rules. You have a right to it, just don't feel that that is sufficient reason to impose your beliefs on me.)
It's not complicated, but it's not simple either. The interpretation of these boundries is probably the most difficult point of law.
BuzzH
Well-known member
But Danr, I got a question...
When a captive elk gets out of a game farm and spreads a disease to wild elk is that not an infringement of my rights to have a disease free wild elk herd? It most surely does affect me and my public elk herds.
How about if their 12 foot fences disrupt migration routes for my public wildlife?
What if a red deer/ elk hybrid gets away and contaminates the gene pool of my public wild elk herd?
Dont say it doesnt happen, there were many, many, many documented cases of all those things happening in MT, CO, Canada, etc. so it isnt just a hypothetical situation.
In Montana there were hundreds of deer and elk killed around game farms where elk tested positive for CWD. Why? Because the game farms had escapes from time to time and contact with my wild herds of deer and elk. The game farmers were taking away my wildlife and affecting me...thats about where their rights end as far as the constitution and I'm concerned, agreed?
When a captive elk gets out of a game farm and spreads a disease to wild elk is that not an infringement of my rights to have a disease free wild elk herd? It most surely does affect me and my public elk herds.
How about if their 12 foot fences disrupt migration routes for my public wildlife?
What if a red deer/ elk hybrid gets away and contaminates the gene pool of my public wild elk herd?
Dont say it doesnt happen, there were many, many, many documented cases of all those things happening in MT, CO, Canada, etc. so it isnt just a hypothetical situation.
In Montana there were hundreds of deer and elk killed around game farms where elk tested positive for CWD. Why? Because the game farms had escapes from time to time and contact with my wild herds of deer and elk. The game farmers were taking away my wildlife and affecting me...thats about where their rights end as far as the constitution and I'm concerned, agreed?
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Cali, I just knew somebody would bring up that bear hunt
First of all, I don't recall saying anything about shooting a bear in the butt. I shot him in the lungs and he never knew what hit him. The only movement out of that bear after the shot was due to the steep terrain, and he must have rolled 100 yards before coming to a stop. And yes, my dad paid for the hunt. It wouldn't have been my first choice of a hunt to pay good money for. I went along mainly for a chance to spend time with my dad, because we don't get to hunt together much anymore, and I figured I better do something with him before he's gone. Besides, there isn't much else to do in May, so why not go bear hunting? The snowmobile ride was only to camp. In a normal year they drive to camp (it's right alongside a main Forest Service road.) That year there was still too much snow. Believe it or not, I had to hike to get to the stand. So to answer your question, yes it was ok, because it was legal, there are lots of bears in Northern Idaho, and these bears are WILD! Now do you see the difference? There is no FENCE. This was public land, where anybody can hunt. And bear hunting is a tool the wildlife department uses to manage the bear population. How do you think the bear population could be controlled in northern Idaho without baiting? I really don't see how you can compare baiting bears with elk farming. One is hunting and one is not. That's about all there is to it.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Well Dan I was going to reply to you next but it looks like Buzz beat me to it. Besides the questions Buzz asked, I only have one more...I take it you still haven't read the article by Valerius Geist? Because if you had, you would know that elk farms DO affect everybody else, and the wild animals around those elk farms. Here's a link to it again, in case you missed it the first time...
www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarm/elkprofit.html
www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarm/elkprofit.html
MarlandS
New member
On the game farms the Elk have been removed from, were the fences taken down or just filled with cattle or other species?
Second question. Some keep saying "in a pen" and while doing so infer that the area is quite confined, yet, others keep saying the fences to the pens disrupt migration routes inferring large areas. Could someone more familiar with the situation than I give an average pen size?
Second question. Some keep saying "in a pen" and while doing so infer that the area is quite confined, yet, others keep saying the fences to the pens disrupt migration routes inferring large areas. Could someone more familiar with the situation than I give an average pen size?
Buzz, I'll give you the point regarding disease. That is a problem and I'm a little distressed that no one has invested the time or resources to formulate an innoculation for captive animals to prevent or at least retard it's spread. There would be specific requirements, like the 12 foot fence, to assure the herd was properly contained and specific liablities if the public elk were contaminated.
As to the fence issue, it's my understanding that these are privately owned ranches. As such, they are not subject to the restrictions of grazing leases. There is no mandate that privately owned land be available to wild animals for migration routes or any other purpose. That's one of the issues that the RMEF is combating by puchasing easements across the west. They are assuring that some land will be left for elk when there are too many people for the space available.
So your right to public elk is limited by the rights of the land owner to use his privately owned land in the manner he/she sees fit. It that entails building 15 foot block walls and restricting migration routes of wild elk, so be it. It would be much like deciding to turn your elk ranch into a developement. (We are becoming more and more familiar with that scenario in Arizona.) There is little recourse in the courts for "reasonable" uses of private land.
As for this being similar to polluting the water with a chemical plant or the air with some other type of chemical dispersion, they are not on the same level. Water and air pollution are termed as hazards to the public welfare. If you recall basic US Government, one of the precepts of the Constitution is to "Promote the general welfare". Since the Constitution is the wellspring of all law in this country, the direction is pretty susinct. Elk do not fall in the same realm.
As to the fence issue, it's my understanding that these are privately owned ranches. As such, they are not subject to the restrictions of grazing leases. There is no mandate that privately owned land be available to wild animals for migration routes or any other purpose. That's one of the issues that the RMEF is combating by puchasing easements across the west. They are assuring that some land will be left for elk when there are too many people for the space available.
So your right to public elk is limited by the rights of the land owner to use his privately owned land in the manner he/she sees fit. It that entails building 15 foot block walls and restricting migration routes of wild elk, so be it. It would be much like deciding to turn your elk ranch into a developement. (We are becoming more and more familiar with that scenario in Arizona.) There is little recourse in the courts for "reasonable" uses of private land.
As for this being similar to polluting the water with a chemical plant or the air with some other type of chemical dispersion, they are not on the same level. Water and air pollution are termed as hazards to the public welfare. If you recall basic US Government, one of the precepts of the Constitution is to "Promote the general welfare". Since the Constitution is the wellspring of all law in this country, the direction is pretty susinct. Elk do not fall in the same realm.
Point Creep
Well-known member
Dan I see you have an elk story to share on another web-site. Awesome dude!!
http://www.theoutdoorlodge.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=3e65179844c1ffff;act=ST;f=22;t=136
http://www.theoutdoorlodge.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=3e65179844c1ffff;act=ST;f=22;t=136
