U.S. Debt Ceiling. 31.4 Trillion!

[SAJ-99]

Bah! Poor become poorer is a farse used by opposition in the flat tax debate.

Poor don't drive Mercedes.

It maintains equality. The American dream.

Low income? Simple: F. Roosevelt's temp welfare intent turned socially long term accepted adapts. Low income, "reduced tax" for grocery/essentials.

Ziiing! Wish real fishing was this easy!

Remember my post about Ken Griffin, $22B in one year, and our inability to understand large numbers? $1billion is 1000 million $. So one person who makes $1B can spend $1000 per day for 1 million days before they ran out of money. That is over 2700 years. It is hard to comprehend. But Ken spends it on a bunch of houses that he is never in and buys the occasional politician when necessary, all the while complaining about taxes. I don't have the answers, but I know where to start. And remember I also said the standard deduction was too high, so spreading the pain.

 

[noharleyyet]

Debt Limit/Budgetary Discourse....

You Are Here

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I really don't understand explain to me like a 5 year old Serious question.

Someone with lower income spends a higher proportion of their income on necessities. Rent/food/transportation might take up 85% of their budget. A wealthy person might have a nicer home/eat out/own nicer cars but even so those items with make up a far smaller portion of their budget. 25%

A flat income tax therefore might tax 5/15 = 33% of a low income persons leftover income and 5/75 = 6% of a rich persons budget.

Put more simply... a $2000 elk tag isn't a big deal if you make $300k a year, out of the question if you make $30k a year. Same concept but taxes.

Some other info on various regressive tax schemes.

 

[antelopedundee]

Yeah, I just made up the number. you are probably right. You can look at he short end of the curve and see that MM avoided the 30day bills and bought 90day. Probably thinking that if a default really does occur, everything will be fixed rather quickly. Hopefully we don't have to sort through the rubble.

I hope the scuttlebutt about treasuries going up instead of down pans out and my Fidelity SPAXX MM get to $1.06. I'd cash that out so fast that you'd get whiplash from watching me do it.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Handlebar flat tax rhetorical is bait and switch "You'll pay less" (if you're rich), if you are middle class you will pay more under a flat tax system. Case and point I moved from CO (flat) to MA (graduated) in the middle of a tax year so 6months each state same job. My effective tax rate in CO was much higher than in MA.

Next year when you are doing your taxes plug your income into a couple of different states and see how much it says you would owe in different states under different systems.

 

[Dougfirtree]

America - Don’t worry about fixing the problems, just worry about making enough money so they don’t apply to you.

Truth bomb

 

[Sytes]

If a person pays 25% of $1,000,000,000...

If a person pays 25% of $40,000...

Same difference only the alleged "regressive tax bogeyman" rich person pays a hell of a lot more to be an American citizen than the $40k person. There are trade offs however one wants to look at it, including all the one sided bells and graphs.

Example: The $40k person drives on roads paid at a drastically lower level of tax. The Civil Servant salaries are a fraction of the $40k persons paid value versus the Billion dollar baby.

Sometimes, getting fixated on the idea of the woes of the poor, we miss a large picture of the poor's use of America's infrastructure, military, etc.

 

[Handlebar]

@Handlebar flat tax rhetorical is bait and switch "You'll pay less" (if you're rich), if you are middle class you will pay more under a flat tax system. Case and point I moved from CO (flat) to MA (graduated) in the middle of a tax year so 6months each state same job. My effective tax rate in CO was much higher than in MA.

Next year when you are doing your taxes plug your income into a couple of different states and see how much it says you would owe in different states under different systems.

Thank you, I am still wrapping my head around the various schemes, Would a flat tax be "fair" if you did not tax people under a certain level?

 

[Blue Steel]

People already know this, but there's a similar argument as to sales taxes that it impacts lower income people more. Like food and transportation, including gasoline and tolls. Right now Oregon/Washington are tyring to figure out how to help pay for a new bridge across the Columbia River (including tolls), and Oregon is thinking about tolling parts of its interstates around the Portland area.

In both instances, there's an argument that lower income people will be more negatively/materially impacted by tolls, esp. where they are more likely to have to drive to jobs (requiring their physical presence, instead of working remotely from home).

 

[Deleted member 28227]

If a person pays 25% of $1,000,000,000...

If a person pays 25% of $40,000...

Same difference only the alleged "regressive tax bogeyman" rich person pays a hell of a lot more to be an American citizen than the $40k person. There are trade offs however one wants to look at it, including all the one sided bells and graphs.

Example: The $40k person drives on roads paid at a drastically lower level of tax. The Civil Servant salaries are a fraction of the $40k persons paid value versus the Billion dollar baby.

Sometimes, getting fixated on the idea of the woes of the poor, we miss a large picture of the poor's use of America's infrastructure, military, etc.

“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” -Louis CK​

 

[Sytes]

“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” -Louis CK​

Fitting, depending on the perspective viewed.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Thank you, I am still wrapping my head around the various schemes, Would a flat tax be "fair" if you did not tax people under a certain level?

A flat rate is fine. MA and CO both have flat rates. But MA has deductions (writeoffs) that target low income folks. CO no deductions.

So in CO your effective rate is 4.4% and the state tax is 4.4%. In MA your effective tax rate might be 2% because of deductions, and the state tax rate is 5%.

MA for instance lets you deduct rent from your income as low income folks are typically not home owners.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Sometimes, getting fixated on the idea of the woes of the poor, we miss a large picture of the poor's use of America's infrastructure, military, etc.

I'd 100% argue the opposite. When operating in the Texas BP doesn't need to hire private military contractors to protect their infrastructure. BP does have to hire military when they operate in West Africa.

One of the reasons your rate of return is so good in Texas versus Alaska is that oil companies don't have to build arterially roads. The haul road up to Prudhoe bay was built by the Alyeska Pipeline company for 125 million dollars in 69' or 1B in 2023 $.

Infrastructure paid for by the American taxpayer is crucial to our business.

 

[Sytes]

Sometimes, getting fixated on the idea of the woes of the poor, we miss a large picture of the poor's use of America's infrastructure, military, etc.

I'd 100% argue the opposite.

Infrastructure paid for by the American taxpayer is crucial to our business.

Placed into context, as I share in the post you picked the portion to quote - "Infrastructure paid for by the American taxpayer IS crucial to our business".
This IS my point.
Went taking into context the debate that the poor are not properly represented for essentials, I differ from your opinion.
Utilizing the added tax $ paid by the "bogeyman rich" for the poor to drive, poor to have law enforcement, and gov't civil servants, equipment, all the way to the $ paid for our military for country "strength", The rich are the ones not properly represented, using your Wllm Trademark graphs, etc.

 

[TOGIE]

The rich are the ones not properly represented, using your Wllm Trademark graphs, etc.

Are you saying the very folks that play golf with our presidents and dine with our senators in their homes, and you know, essentially run this country, aren’t well represented?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Placed into context, as I share in the post you picked the portion to quote - "Infrastructure paid for by the American taxpayer IS crucial to our business".
This IS my point.
Went taking into context the debate that the poor are not properly represented for essentials, I differ from your opinion.
Utilizing the added tax $ paid by the "bogeyman rich" for the poor to drive, poor to have law enforcement, and gov't civil servants, equipment, all the way to the $ paid for our military for country "strength", The rich are the ones not properly represented, using your Wllm Trademark graphs, etc.

My sister lives in Kenya she doesn’t pay for protection.

If my company operated in Kenya we would absolutely pay for protection.

Rich folks and businesses benefit disproportionately from the stability that our military and LEOs provide.

Further say Warren buffet gets 10% of his wealth stolen and Joe blow gets 10% of his wealth stolen… which case are the cops working harder on? Do you think the FBI are getting involved in Joes case?

 

[Sytes]

Are you saying the very folks that play golf with our presidents and dine with our senators in their homes, and you know, essentially run this country aren’t well represented?

The context used in the previous posts - the bogeymen "rich" were not represented.

The poor, poor people gain a theme of the apologist response when reality, the exact same U.S. Citizen pays $$$ to support gov't operations far greater than the poor person.

It's an element the use of poor for sake of a flat tax debate is erroneous. Voids the funds an equal American pays far beyond for use of the infrastructure that the poor use and gain the gov't support - as "essentials"...

 

[Blue Steel]

Further say Warren buffet gets 10% of his wealth stolen and Joe blow gets 10% of his wealth stolen… which case are the cops working harder on? Do you think the FBI are getting involved in Joes case?

Plus Joe may get an eviction notice and his car repo'd. That in turn means he can't get to work on time, so he's fired. Then things get even worse. Buffett might just sell a few Apple shares and drink less soda for a few days.

 

[Exhausted]

“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” -Louis CK​

What happens if your neighbor has, like, way too much? Like this joker is the top 1% of full bowls in the country and isn't going around giving away what he can't eat by himself. Can I look in his bowl then? If the buck stops at, "make sure that they have enough." then we shouldn't be talking about the princely class (or whatever lol) and the rich in this thread. Unless we really mean, "Look at all your neighbors to figure out who doesn't have enough and then figure out how to take some from the neighbors that have more than enough and spread it around so that all has enough." Because Louis' line feels like it leaves out, "If they don't have enough, give from your own bowl as much as you can."

I'm mainly being facetious and rhetorical. I just kind of hate this type of quote snippets which make such light, simple observations about what are actually really complex problems.

I do have a genuine question though regarding flat taxes. Would a flat tax make sense with some deductions in a way that reduces taxable income by a reasonable expectation of living expenses? If such deductions reduce your taxable income to $0, you don't pay any taxes. But you can't get back more than you paid in. Would that cover most of the lower income tier? Something like the below using a 20% flat tax (after deductions, minus state taxes) just as a representation:

forgive my weak Excel charting skills. . . . and the resulting length of this post.

High Cost area + low income household:



Median income (2021 household):



High Income:


Single Mom, Low Income, High cost area:


Very high income:



Median income, but like, way too many kids:



@DouglasR just skiing and chasing ladies:



This setup would negate the savings of living in a no-income tax state (unfortunate for me living in TN) which means I'm probably doing something wrong. But, like I said, complex conversation.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

What happens if your neighbor has, like, way too much? Like this joker is the top 1% of full bowls in the country and isn't going around giving away what he can't eat by himself. Can I look in his bowl then? If the buck stops at, "make sure that they have enough." then we shouldn't be talking about the princely class (or whatever lol) and the rich in this thread. Unless we really mean, "Look at all your neighbors to figure out who doesn't have enough and then figure out how to take some from the neighbors that have more than enough and spread it around so that all has enough." Because Louis' line feels like it leaves out, "If they don't have enough, give from your own bowl as much as you can."

I'm mainly being facetious and rhetorical. I just kind of hate this type of quote snippets which make such light, simple observations about what are actually really complex problems.

I do have a genuine question though regarding flat taxes. Would a flat tax make sense with some deductions in a way that reduces taxable income by a reasonable expectation of living expenses? If such deductions reduce your taxable income to $0, you don't pay any taxes. But you can't get back more than you paid in. Would that cover most of the lower income tier? Something like the below using a 20% flat tax (after deductions, minus state taxes) just as a representation:

forgive my weak Excel charting skills. . . . and the resulting length of this post.

High Cost area + low income household:
View attachment 276360


Median income (2021 household):
View attachment 276361


High Income:
View attachment 276362

Single Mom, Low Income, High cost area:
View attachment 276366

Very high income:
View attachment 276364


Median income, but like, way too many kids:
View attachment 276367


@DouglasR just skiing and chasing ladies:

View attachment 276368

This setup would negate the savings of living in a no-income tax state (unfortunate for me living in TN) which means I'm probably doing something wrong. But, like I said, complex conversation.

Generally speaking what you’re outlining is a progressive tax scheme, flat is just flat. CO doesn’t have a standard deduction.