You're either at the table, or you're on the menu. Your choice.
S. 1695: Human Powered Travel in Wilderness Act
- Thread starter Nameless Range
- Start date
You're either at the table, or you're on the menu. Your choice.
MITCHMO
Well-known member
I’ll vent,
Just want to share my personal experience that doesn’t really tie to wilderness areas but feels good to mention it. My hunting areas have been ruined by the bike trails at home. Constantly expanding and it’s impossible to be alone anywhere now so I’ve left. Many square miles of land cross crossed and in constant use.
I’m forever amazed how hard sportsman Have to work to protect the land, especially since they are one of the few groups that pay to use its resources. People cater to bikers, kayakers, or other outdoor groups like they are going to cure cancer. None of them pay to be out there. Kind of surprises me when a boat ramp closes and only allows kayaks, or a bike trail is bull dozed through a conservancy that was paid for with sportsman’s money and hunting is allowed. I tell my kids everyday, no one cares more about the land and it’s resources than a sportsman or sportswomen. I don’t think it’s a loosing battle, just one that won’t ever end. It does kind of make you appreciate what you have when you work for it.
Just want to share my personal experience that doesn’t really tie to wilderness areas but feels good to mention it. My hunting areas have been ruined by the bike trails at home. Constantly expanding and it’s impossible to be alone anywhere now so I’ve left. Many square miles of land cross crossed and in constant use.
I’m forever amazed how hard sportsman Have to work to protect the land, especially since they are one of the few groups that pay to use its resources. People cater to bikers, kayakers, or other outdoor groups like they are going to cure cancer. None of them pay to be out there. Kind of surprises me when a boat ramp closes and only allows kayaks, or a bike trail is bull dozed through a conservancy that was paid for with sportsman’s money and hunting is allowed. I tell my kids everyday, no one cares more about the land and it’s resources than a sportsman or sportswomen. I don’t think it’s a loosing battle, just one that won’t ever end. It does kind of make you appreciate what you have when you work for it.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
And they don't deserve to be at the table, as they've brought nothing.
As Wllm stated... many more voices than those already in a stone cold position. I enjoy a quality debate though I'm sure as heck not holding my breath some of the vocals here might even consider another's opinion... I'm good with that
I do appreciate respect for debating the topic vs the person.They're American citizens debating their public land birthright. That gives them a seat at the table.
Y'all went way too fast on this one today and I broke my rule of moving on if I'm several pages behind in a thread. Just some quick thoughts related to some comments by @wllm1313.
Front Range Crowding
The reasons given for crowding on Front Range public lands are precisely the reasons we should not negotiate on the remaining areas protected by wilderness designation. That designation is the last line of defense for wildlife. As someone pointed out, the notion that opening more areas will moderate crowding will not bear out. If you build it they will come.
Ski Areas
The impact of ski areas goes far beyond the out of bounds markers. Thousands of acres of private land winter range has been chopped up and rendered useless on the Western Slope due to ski area development.
Case in point, a new herd management plan for the D8 deer herd a couple of months ago, which includes the Vail and Beaver Creek ski resorts. The population objective for most of the 1980s was 26,000 but was lowered to 21,000 in 1988. The 2009 herd management plan reduced the population objective again, to 13,500-16,500 due to "loss of habitat, particularly winter range."
The new plan approved a couple of months ago reduced the population objective again, to 10,000-14,000 because "the cumulative impacts of decades of human population growth and the direct and indirect impacts of human activities have continued to diminish both the quality and quantity of habitat and its carrying capacity for deer."
We have lost 50% of the carrying capacity of this area in 35 years. What's it going to look like 35 years from now? Someone once told me that if you compromise 4 times you are left with 6.25%. There's a lot of truth to that, I'm not going to compromise the public lands that remain.
Front Range Crowding
The reasons given for crowding on Front Range public lands are precisely the reasons we should not negotiate on the remaining areas protected by wilderness designation. That designation is the last line of defense for wildlife. As someone pointed out, the notion that opening more areas will moderate crowding will not bear out. If you build it they will come.
Ski Areas
The impact of ski areas goes far beyond the out of bounds markers. Thousands of acres of private land winter range has been chopped up and rendered useless on the Western Slope due to ski area development.
Case in point, a new herd management plan for the D8 deer herd a couple of months ago, which includes the Vail and Beaver Creek ski resorts. The population objective for most of the 1980s was 26,000 but was lowered to 21,000 in 1988. The 2009 herd management plan reduced the population objective again, to 13,500-16,500 due to "loss of habitat, particularly winter range."
The new plan approved a couple of months ago reduced the population objective again, to 10,000-14,000 because "the cumulative impacts of decades of human population growth and the direct and indirect impacts of human activities have continued to diminish both the quality and quantity of habitat and its carrying capacity for deer."
We have lost 50% of the carrying capacity of this area in 35 years. What's it going to look like 35 years from now? Someone once told me that if you compromise 4 times you are left with 6.25%. There's a lot of truth to that, I'm not going to compromise the public lands that remain.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I can't figure out if you're being PC, or if you really don't give a rats ass about Wilderness.
AvidIndoorsman
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You make fair reasonable points as always.
What about bringing back some of the failed ski areas on the front range that died in the 70s and 80s? There are
Vail resorts is certainly in large part responsible for the decline of those herds.
-Per the intermediate pages you may have missed, I agree, I’m looking for people to express their best arguments. I think these threads are at their best when they help us to better communicate to others our beliefs.
AvidIndoorsman
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Oh come now
I'm being faithful to the concept that all Americans deserve a voice in how their public lands are managed, regardless of what I think of their perspective. It's an important part of public land management.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I don't remember you having that tune while Mr Orange opened up more areas to O&G. Both are attacks on our public lands.
IMBA has a very two faced (IMO) stance on Wilderness:
IMBA will not support any broad efforts by any organization to amend the existing Wilderness Act in its entirety or the federal land management agencies’ regulations on existing Wilderness areas as these are not strategically aligned with achieving our long-term mission.
However, with a trail by trail, case by case basis, in conjunction with local chapter efforts, IMBA will pursue Congressional legislation to adjust existing wilderness boundaries that reopen trails currently closed to people riding bicycles.
So we'll just amend the boundaries to include trail corridors... at that point we might as well amend them for pump jack pads too.
AvidIndoorsman
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I believe there are a couple wilderness areas that were created that cut off existing trail systems. I think the idea is that they want "easements" in a couple areas.
Based on the judges ruling of the 2019 grouse mgt plans which erased wildlife protections on over 64 million acres of public land, that action was illegal, and upended a 10 year effort between a wide swath of stakeholders including industry, agriculture, western governors, fish & wildlife professionals, hunters, conservationists & locally elected county commissioners, among many, many others. I think my record of constantly standing up for public & open processes is ok on that one.
And I freely admit that often I fall short of the person I should be.
Because I disagree with IMBA does not mean they don't deserve to be part of the panoply of interests who voice their opinions on how our lands should be managed. I disagree with them on the policy you have put forwarded, and have let my now former electeds know how I felt about it. I've also worked with IMBA on wilderness proposals and we came up with the RMF deal where the FS would look for appropriate routes that would not harm wilderness characteristics in roadless areas, as well as ensure proper wildlife security standards would be in place, as well as closures during hunting season if necessary. That effort helped lead to the first wilderness designation in over 25 years in MT.
I bought a Specialized yesterday.
My wife thinks I bought it to ride with her but I really just bought it for cred so I can say I’m a mtn biker when I make a statement against allowing them here, there, and everywhere in roadless areas.
My wife thinks I bought it to ride with her but I really just bought it for cred so I can say I’m a mtn biker when I make a statement against allowing them here, there, and everywhere in roadless areas.
AvidIndoorsman
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Watcha get?
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Again. That's a no go. Not happening. Easement? Wtf.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Ben, we're not taking about general FS or BLM lands. We're taking about W. If mountain bikes get a seat at the W table then why don't the Koch Brothers? I'm sure they could use some "easements"
My argument isn't that we give them what they want, but help find a better path than taking wilderness away. You don't get to that conversation if your first act is to refuse to talk.
D
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There’s a checklist of injuries you need to incur before you have any cred.
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