Points Schemes

[azelkhntr]

Maybe you should do a little reading up before posting about certain states and the cost to buy a NR point.

Sorry. I look to you elder fathers for clarification in these matters. I think I have a clear understanding now for the reason for all the bellyaching w/o having to wade through all 50 States regs.

 

[WapitiBob]

Oh...So Wyo charges you an app fee and then a point fee if you don't draw? no

That's weird. Do they make you buy a general license first to have the opportunity to apply? no

I had to buy a general hunting license to apply in Colorado and I suppose most other States might require that as well. Oh well, Wanna play gotta pay.

 

[NoWiser]

Oh I get it. You're upset because you have to buy a license before even being able to apply for the draw, and then when you don't get your tag you're stuck with a license for a State you now don't want to hunt in right? As a resident I have to have a license to apply and you need to have one as well. They've got to get you in the system somehow right? You don't get "special privilege's" because you're out of state. You choosing to then not go to AZ to hunt or fish is now a "you" problem. All I gotta say is hard cheese. I had to buy the CO general license to be able to apply for their draw and so be it. Luckily I planned to do the OTC elk hunt regardless. There ain't no free lunch. Maybe some of you guys are spreading yourselves to thin.

Not upset about anything, to be honest. I’ve actually been floating on clouds lately because I drew an awesome mulie tag just when I thought hope was lost for the year. I’m simply pointing out that building points is not cheap. If the cost upset me, I wouldn’t do it. You do realize I don’t have a single post in this thread in favor of, or opposed to, point systems, don’t you?

 

[cedahm]

Oh I get it. You're upset because you have to buy a license before even being able to apply for the draw, and then when you don't get your tag you're stuck with a license for a State you now don't want to hunt in right? As a resident I have to have a license to apply and you need to have one as well. They've got to get you in the system somehow right? You don't get "special privilege's" because you're out of state. You choosing to then not go to AZ to hunt or fish is now a "you" problem. All I gotta say is hard cheese. I had to buy the CO general license to be able to apply for their draw and so be it. Luckily I planned to do the OTC elk hunt regardless. There ain't no free lunch. Maybe some of you guys are spreading yourselves to thin.

He answered your Binary question (accurately) using one word. Here’s the history:


But judging by the 11 sentence response, that one word answer to a yes or no question that you asked must have triggered you.

If you don’t want to learn anything about this topic, why are you posting on this thread?

 

[ImBillT]

I would do away with point systems in a heart beat. Thank heavens for NM and ID. There are exit strategies for states if they ever choose to do away with them, and eventually someone will. It has happened before.

That said, NM and ID have been making some pretty ugly changes lately.

 

[VikingsGuy]

With the national decline in hunters, I am thinking here in 10/15 years we will have less hunters anyways and the numbers should even back out.

While hunters nationally are in a decline, all signals point to continued growth in the segment that wants to go NR in the western states. The decline seems to be largely folks bored with or lacking access to land for whitetail hunting and local small game hunting. With western NR trends and overall population growth, I don't think drawing tags in the west is going to get easier in the next 15 years.

 

[thomas89]

While hunters nationally are in a decline, all signals point to continued growth in the segment that wants to go NR in the western states. The decline seems to be largely folks bored with or lacking access to land for whitetail hunting and local small game hunting. With western NR trends and overall population growth, I don't think drawing tags in the west is going to get easier in the next 15 years.

Not accurate numbers just throwing it out there but something like the rule 10% of the hunters kill 80% of the game? I am not doubting your information, just odd that the numbers of hunters choosing, relatively speaking, difficult sub-section of hunts. In comparison the small game, waterfowl, and upland as well as whitetail hunts available to most of the country. Don’t know that it makes sense to me that nationally numbers are declining, but there is an increase in out of state hunters?

Looks like I might just have to go back to chasing local rabbits and whitetail. Worse problems to have.

 

[Shangobango]

From my perspective as someone who has only been in the point building/western applications game long enough to acquire no more than 4 points for any species, I think I would prefer a system that splits the draw 50% random/50% bonus point. That way the new guys have some chance at a lot of the better units but the old hands still get some benefit from applying or otherwise building points.

I was shocked at the amount of point creep that occurred in Wyoming tbis year. It was a real eye opener.

 

[LopeHunter]

From my perspective as someone who has only been in the point building/western applications game long enough to acquire no more than 4 points for any species, I think I would prefer a system that splits the draw 50% random/50% bonus point. That way the new guys have some chance at a lot of the better units but the old hands still get some benefit from applying or otherwise building points.

I was shocked at the amount of point creep that occurred in Wyoming tbis year. It was a real eye opener.

Have you been to Vegas? Gambled there? Say you went three years over March Madness. Never won but you had a chance to win each of those three years. So, you go back the fourth year and how much does the casino give you vs. me if is my first trip to the casino? I mean, would not be fair for me to win in my first year when you have had three bites at the apple and never won. Vegas, by golly, needs a point system. Ain't no fair. Now, should Vegas do points squared or some random and what about the preference to Nevada gamblers? I mean, those locals pay taxes and we could all move there if want so non-residents deserve poorer odds and to pay more to play each machine.

Now, if the prior paragraph is not your understanding of Vegas, why should any prior unsuccessful applicant have anything but the same odds as any other applicant whether is a new one or has been applying twice as long and whether a resident or non-resident? States have the right to screw up the application process and many of them have. Don't hate the player, hate the state.

 

[antelopedundee]

Oh...So Wyo charges you an app fee and then a point fee if you don't draw? That's weird. Do they make you buy a general license first to have the opportunity to apply? I had to buy a general hunting license to apply in Colorado and I suppose most other States might require that as well. Oh well, Wanna play gotta pay.

Wyoming charges you a $15 app fee plus a credit card fee, neither of which are refundable. A portion of the app fee goes into a pool to help pay for wildlife. After the initial draw if you are unsuccessful you can purchase a preference point if you want to. Preference points are purely optional on your's or my part. An antelope preference point in Wyoming is $31.

 

[Buschy]

Seems like the consensus is "too bad Buschy, here is a t-shirt and thanks for playing". I never said I was against a change and I think wllm1313's proposal is very well thought through. I did say I was against trashing all of the points I have accrued and getting absolutely nothing for them.

Also worth mentioning, I am a very normal guy making a modest income. I sacrificed tremendously for the last 24 years to buy BPs and PP's for my kids, my wife and myself. I just think that should be worth something. If you don't think so, we agree to disagree and I am not getting bent out of shape about it. Whatever happens with BPs and PPs happens, life will go on.

Finally, I have said before there is NO lack of opportunity for ANYONE who wants to hunt elk, mulies, antelope, etc. in most western states. We kill great animals on OTC, general, and leftover tags in multiple states every year. Every picture below is one of those animals taken on public land or land accessible to anyone who asks. Before anyone makes a comment, I posted them simply to make a point...it can be done by you or anyone else! I was scouting a new area over the 4th of July that is another goldmine for bull elk for any member of Hunttalk that wants to do the research and put on the effort (a lot of effort). It is public land that can be hunted EVERY year for outstanding bull elk. Opportunities abound and there are more of these types of hunts than my family and I have time to go on!

 

[rtraverdavis]

I like your style, Buschy.

 

[Kiwi]

Personally I like New Zealands system

No tags, no seasons, no bag limits. Only down side is the game are hunted 24/7/365 and finding a mature animal can be a challenge. But put in the effort and you might be rewarded.

 

[azelkhntr]

Seems like the consensus is "too bad Buschy, here is a t-shirt and thanks for playing". I never said I was against a change and I think wllm1313's proposal is very well thought through. I did say I was against trashing all of the points I have accrued and getting absolutely nothing for them.

Also worth mentioning, I am a very normal guy making a modest income. I sacrificed tremendously for the last 24 years to buy BPs and PP's for my kids, my wife and myself. I just think that should be worth something. If you don't think so, we agree to disagree and I am not getting bent out of shape about it. Whatever happens with BPs and PPs happens, life will go on.

Finally, I have said before there is NO lack of opportunity for ANYONE who wants to hunt elk, mulies, antelope, etc. in most western states. We kill great animals on OTC, general, and leftover tags in multiple states every year. Every picture below is one of those animals taken on public land or land accessible to anyone who asks. Before anyone makes a comment, I posted them simply to make a point...it can be done by you are anyone else! I was scouting a new area over the 4th of July that is another goldmine for bull elk for any member of Hunttalk that wants to do the research and put on the effort (a lot of effort). It is public land that can be hunted EVERY year for outstanding bull elk. Opportunities abound and there are more of these types of hunts than my family and I have time to go on!

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I think I hate this guy.

 

[azelkhntr]

Wyoming charges you a $15 app fee plus a credit card fee, neither of which are refundable. A portion of the app fee goes into a pool to help pay for wildlife. After the initial draw if you are unsuccessful you can purchase a preference point if you want to. Preference points are purely optional on yours or my part. An antelope preference in Wyoming is $31.

Does Wyo require you to buy a hunting license prior to applying?

 

[Trial153]

Nest of scheming bastards!

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[Shangobango]

Have you been to Vegas? Gambled there? Say you went three years over March Madness. Never won but you had a chance to win each of those three years. So, you go back the fourth year and how much does the casino give you vs. me if is my first trip to the casino? I mean, would not be fair for me to win in my first year when you have had three bites at the apple and never won. Vegas, by golly, needs a point system. Ain't no fair. Now, should Vegas do points squared or some random and what about the preference to Nevada gamblers? I mean, those locals pay taxes and we could all move there if want so non-residents deserve poorer odds and to pay more to play each machine.

Now, if the prior paragraph is not your understanding of Vegas, why should any prior unsuccessful applicant have anything but the same odds as any other applicant whether is a new one or has been applying twice as long and whether a resident or non-resident? States have the right to screw up the application process and many of them have. Don't hate the player, hate the state.

I think I see what you are getting at but I think equating applying for game tags to gambling in a casinois a false equivalency. With one you are hoping to get the chance to purchase something with the other you are wagering X amount hoping to win X*Y amount.

Also with game tags some are available over the counter or available to those willing to pay the price. There are no guaranteed wins in gambling at a casino. Even to those with enough money to cover every number on the roulette wheel it is still a losing proposition with a baked in house advantage.

Applying to hopefully pay for something does not seem the same as wagering some amount to win a greater amount.

 

[bts09]

So I’m honestly not sure where I come out on any of this. I’m fairly new to western hunting (within the last 5 years). When I got into it, I did a lot of research across the states and decided where I would be willing to spend money to build points.

For example, states that required me to buy a license before applying for points were not that attractive unless I was applying there anyway. And buying sheep points anywhere made no sense to me. I’m 35. With point creep, there’s a reasonable chance that I will NEVER draw a sheep tag on points before I die. And the amount of money I will have invested by that time will be a small fortune. I’d rather put that money toward some random sheep raffles each year. Who knows?

The reason the system is not discouraging to me is because it, too, is part of the great American experiment (federalism, I mean, not the triple bacon cheeseburger). Don’t like points? Apply in New Mexico and Idaho each year and throw your fate to the hands of randomness. Like the idea of being able to guarantee a hunt at some time in the future? Start building points where it makes sense.

Are the systems perfect? No, of course not. But as long as there are still some states that are random, and some states that allow for some amount of rewarding investing over time, and some places where you can hunt without relying on randomness or points, I’m happy.

 

[antelopedundee]

Does Wyo require you to buy a hunting license prior to applying?

No.

FWIW here in Iowa you have to have a general aka small game license in order to hunt deer, but you're not required to purchase it before getting a deer license.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Re:OP - you can “vote” to end point systems, but no one is counting your vote. This is just a theoretical discussion of what a better system could look like.

What you can do is show up to G&F community meetings, vote for local officials who represent your views, and contact your local elected and appointed officials when there are decisions to be made about point systems, etc, to make your voice heard.

Re: max, or close to max point holders. It’s not “unfair” to change the system you bought into because there was never a guarantee the rules would never change. I hope some consideration is made for the money you invested from the bottom floor, so you still have some advantage over applicants with fewer points, because that’s the right thing to do. But since being a max point holder had become such a crazy advantage in getting a huge percentage of the best tags, it’s time to dramatically reduce that advantage to allow everyone else a better chance of getting these tags too.

Re: State revenue - states are making millions upon millions through selling a lie, similar to a pyramid scheme, in that can enter the points game with the reward of having a good chance of getting a glory tag someday.

States have no morals, ethics, or conscience, so any change to their point scheme will likely only come about when the new system maintains or increases the revenue stream.

Re: people considering getting into the game for glory tags - buyer beware. Math shows that your chances of making out like the boomers who got in on the ground floor of the schemes is basically 0. If you really want a glory tag, play a tag lottery, or just save up cash and buy a glory tag for 15k or 50k or whatever.

Re:me - I’m not that interested in glory tags. My plan is to use points I can cycle through in 5 years or less, because I just like to hunt. I think point schemes are great for tags you can cycle through. When the WY general elk tag becomes a once in every 6+ years I’ll have a tough decision to make.