Points Schemes

[VikingsGuy]

If I were master of the universe?

I would link all the state systems.

You only get to apply for one state per species, so if you put in for CO mule deer that's it for mule deer for you across the board in limited units. All states can run leftover lists and you can pull tags off those with no national cap. So you could get a WY left over Mt left over etc.

For all limited entry tags, those 10% chance of success or above are straight lottery. Tags below 10% success are 5 pref points then straight lottery above that number aka CO system for MSG but with no pref points. Tags above 1% are once in a lifetime harvest. You can only draw 1 MSG nationwide (you can do slams, but not 3 desert sheep).

Anyone in the system already, all your points become bonus points, you can consolidate your points between species (within a state). So you could allocate all your points to sheep and have 120 sheep bonus points in MT. No new points are allowed except for the skin in the game points outlined above, which don't increase your odds but just allow you to participate in the draw. If you stop applying 1 year for those skin in the game points you start from scratch.

Goal would be lots of tags on leftover lists and try to distribute the coveted tags around, you would be throwing the people who played the game a bone by hopefully guaranteeing them some great tags. Hopefully ^ that would be a system that would still be sustainable 40 years from now.

I like your thinking. Since we are in fantasy mode, my biggest pain point is having to select specific units vs a basket of units any one of which that would be just fine. If unit A, B, C and D are all equally OK with me, its a bummer to apply for A only to find out that applications were way up in A this year and while I didn't draw there I could have drawn in B, C or D if I had a crystal ball. (this is not the same a second/third choice as it doesn't just work with first preference leftovers). We need some type of ranked-choice voting mechanism where I can apply for a list of acceptable units/tags in preferred order - there is no doubt computers could handle this if designed properly.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I like your thinking. Since we are in fantasy mode, my biggest pain point is having to select specific units vs a basket of units any one of which that would be just fine. If unit A, B, C and D are all equally OK with me, its a bummer to apply for A only to find out that applications were way up in A this year and while I didn't draw there I could have drawn in B, C or D if I had a crystal ball. (this is not the same a second/third choice as it doesn't just work with first preference leftovers). We need some type of ranked-choice voting mechanism where I can apply for a list of acceptable units/tags in preferred order - there is no doubt computers could handle this if designed properly.

I believe that's how NM system works, Vermont moose as well. The computer picks you as a winner and then goes through your first 3 NM? and all VT moose and assigns you whatever unit still has quota left.

 

[NoWiser]

No I'm not serious; I'm Tom. Your choice to put in for all that dough; yours. No ones holding a gun to your head. I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of youse guys think you're entitled to tags because you're throwing so much money in the game. There's no whiners in hunting

View attachment 146286

You must be mistaking my post for another with whining in it. I simply stated a fact. Points aren’t cheap.

 

[azelkhntr]

Why don’t you take a break from being a dick and point out in my quoted post where I’m whining and acting entitled. You said points are cheap and only cost enough to cover administrative fees. That’s false. They are often expensive and raise funds for Game and Fish Departments. Obviously, at this point, I think they are a fair value in some states and that’s why I continue to buy them. In some states they aren’t a good value so I don’t. It’s as simple as that.

The gals don't call me Long Tom fer nuthin. Somebody call the wambulance please. No one is forcing you to buy anything. AZ pts are $15 NR, CO charges a whoppen $9 for NR. Wyo hits you for $15 NR per app. All highly affordable and this sampling leads me to conclude that the most any State is charging for a pp or bp is under $20. The system isn't broken but alot of peoples perceptions of the equanimity of it seems to be eh dick?

 

[406dn]

Anytime, in every circumstance,, when demand far exceeds supply,, those left on the outside looking in are not entirely satisfied with how the allocation is conducted.

No one is forced to apply for ANY of these tags. If you don't like the odds or the cost or both,, leave it for someone who will accept the odds and cost.

I have only played the limited entry game as a resident in Montana. I've been applying for a bighorn ram tag for nearing forty years, so far unsuccessfully. Like more than a few, my bonus points creep up each year. It is entirely possible that I'll be planted in the ground without drawing,, and that is OK.

By foregoing applying for a bull moose tag and instead trying for cow tags,,, I've drawn three tags for moose over the years. Given the chance for a replay,,,I'd do it exactly the same way.

It took only a few years to draw a mountain goat tag. But part of that was I applied for units with harder to access goats. The odds were much better and the hunt was much tougher. I have no doubt I could have drawn another time or two using the same approach,, but I chose to self limit how many goats need to hang on the wall.

If states sold tags the way I have bought two horses,,, to the highest bidder,, they could greatly increase their revenue. I am grateful they don't and will keep trying for a ram tag, no matter the system.

 

[WapitiBob]

The gals don't call me Long Tom fer nuthin. Somebody call the wambulance please. No one is forcing you to buy anything. AZ pts are $15 NR, CO charges a whoppen $9 for NR. Wyo hits you for $15 NR per app. All highly affordable and this sampling leads me to conclude that the most any State is charging for a pp or bp is under $20. The system isn't broken but alot of peoples perceptions of the equanimity of it seems to be eh dick?

A $15 Wyoming app fee isn’t the cost of a point in that state.

 

[2rocky]

I like the fact that different states have different points systems. I liken it to a Casino. The house always wins but enough win to keep them coming back.

It is a bit like Texas hold 'em in some places because you gotta pay to stay in the game. There are some Hi Limit tables I won't play at. (PP states)

Then there is the Quick and Easy Blackjack table. I play 4 hands on 20 bucks and don't feel too bad if I don't win every hand, but I'll win one of the 4 more than likely. (random draws)

I might throw $20 at the roulette table as I pass by (raffle tags)

But I know the $19.99 Buffet (OTC) will be pretty good and my meal is what I make of it. It's not as good as the steakhouse, (landowner tags) but if i pick the right options I can have a good meal.

 

[Bullshot]

The gals don't call me Long Tom fer nuthin. Somebody call the wambulance please. No one is forcing you to buy anything. AZ pts are $15 NR, CO charges a whoppen $9 for NR. Wyo hits you for $15 NR per app. All highly affordable and this sampling leads me to conclude that the most any State is charging for a pp or bp is under $20. The system isn't broken but alot of peoples perceptions of the equanimity of it seems to be eh dick?

You missed some numbers there...MT is more, and WY points are more than that, and tiered by species (pretty sure not due to admin costs). Most are more. Add a zero in there for moose and such. CO charges 100 for the big guys. And requires you to buy a licence to buy a point. Maybe you don’t actually have the points you think you do LOL!

Not complaining, in fact, if CO would like a little extra jingle in the bank, I am happy to volunteer to buy a few dozen more this year if they’ll let me. Sure could use them to add some usefulness to the 20+ permanently collecting dust.

 

[NoWiser]

You missed some numbers there...MT is more, and WY points are more than that, and tiered by species (pretty sure not due to admin costs). Add a zero in there for moose and such. CO charges 100 for the big guys. Most are more. Maybe you don’t actually have the points you think you do LOL!

Arizona you are $160 in before you buy your first point.

 

[azelkhntr]

A $15 Wyoming app fee isn’t the cost of a point in that state.

Oh...So Wyo charges you an app fee and then a point fee if you don't draw? That's weird. Do they make you buy a general license first to have the opportunity to apply? I had to buy a general hunting license to apply in Colorado and I suppose most other States might require that as well. Oh well, Wanna play gotta pay.

 

[azelkhntr]

Arizona you are $160 in before you buy your first point.

But you can turn it back in for a refund if you don't draw yes?

 

[NoWiser]

But you can turn it back in for a refund if you don't draw yes?

No

 

[hank4elk]

I'm helping out my fellow hunters. Gave up all points & applying in other states 8 yrs ago.
Points Suck.
There. I feel better.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

If states like Idaho and NM decide to never go to a point system then so be it. I like a mix of points and no points in my draws. If they go to points, I am fine too. But I think it is tough to argue point systems are not "fair" and then in the same sentence say it would be "fair" for a state with an established system to tell their loyal customers that all of the sudden their points are gone. They would have to say something like, "max points is 30 and you can keep getting points for $100 until you hit 30 at which point your application is $10 but you can only have 30 points or less" IDK. You'd need a transition plan to do that....but I personally think once the cat is out of the bag just keep going with it. People draw and people die and people quit. Sure you may never get a San Juan elk tag, Breaks sheep tag or Henry's deer tag, but you can still draw quality tags starting from the bottom.

 

[Stocker]

Sorry if this has been said, but it’s simple. 50% random, 50% points.


If it was me I’d do away with them even though I’m 0/7 on New Mexico elk and 0/7 on Idaho elk. But there is still a chance I could draw a bighorn sheep tag (not in Idaho if I apply for elk). So wait until I’m 70 to draw a sheep tag or have the chance to draw one now when I’m in my 30’s. The answer is obvious.

 

[MTGomer]

No. People have invested for years and dismantling them is not a good move for Fish and Game departments. People shouldn't have to step aside and drop 10, 20 or 30 years of diligently applying and investing so some flat-brimmed dudes who have a million insta followers and zero points can jump in line so they can get better content.

Today’s Supreme Court ruling on another topic taught us that doing stupid shit for long periods of time does not excuse the continuance of stupid shit into the future. That’s basically a Gorsuch quote.

 

[TriStar Hunt]

Who would vote to do away with point schemes? The points game seems to work okay for 4-5 point units that have enough tags to cycle hunters through every few years, but most of us can forget ever catching up to the really high demand units. I believe ID and NM are the only states that don't currently play the points game.

I think it really depends on the state and chance at getting a tag. If like in TN they only hand out 8 elk tags a year out of 8,000+ applications, a point system would be meaningless and discourage hunters from applying. If it’s in a state with a more even proportion of applicants and tags then a point system rewards those who try each year without discouraging those without points. I also think having a certain proportion of tags based on points and a certain not makes sense in some cases. It really depends on so many factors that often vary between state and by type of game.

 

[homers]

But you can turn it back in for a refund if you don't draw yes?

Maybe you should do a little reading up before posting about certain states and the cost to buy a NR point.

 

[thomas89]

Yeah man, ehh, I don't know. Thinking I got a kid coming up in the hunting game or future kids coming up, I guess my goal is to have them enjoy the experience of the hunt, no so much the biggest bulls/bucks, the most bulls/bucks or whatever else.

Personally I think I'm getting away from the points game, I have 5 or 6 moose points from when I was a resident in WY I am walking away from. I figure if I were to invest that $150 PP (todays cost ... not counting future inflation) cost every year, in 20/25/30 years I doubt I'd draw a tag, but I bet I'd have a shit pot of money to do some other fun hunts. Maybe even a moose hunt in Canada or something of the like. That's just the points, not the actual what, $2,000 price of the tag? If guys wanna pop for that moose, sheep, goat, whatever PP or tag every year, I don't care. It's available to me, I just am not interested.

It's another luxury in my opinion. Some people wanna spend the most for the latest/greatest units, some are just happy to go every year. Based off all the "Hunt XXXXXX Every Year!!" videos on YouTube, I doubt many of them are relying on points, most are probably OTC, or reduced price, limited access, whatever the case may be.

With the national decline in hunters, I am thinking here in 10/15 years we will have less hunters anyways and the numbers should even back out. I just really think that once these IG/Facebook guys have their fill of the limelight they'll fade away and quit and leave the rest to "real" outdoorsmen. I'm glad you asked what a "real" outdoorsman is, I'm thinking it's a person who is well rounded in the natural world, whether it be tracking, or survival, or calling, etc., etc.,. Thinking of some of the best woodsmen/hunters I know, I bet most of them have forgotten more outdoor knowledge than this flat bill crew will ever know. I don't know how many people I saw excited that the corona virus had some states offering hunters safety online, as if it was a big difficult hurdle to get into hunting, quite sad actually.

Also, it won't do much good to have all the tags in the world if we don't have good access opportunities. Vote, vote, vote!

 

[azelkhntr]

No

Oh I get it. You're upset because you have to buy a license before even being able to apply for the draw, and then when you don't get your tag you're stuck with a license for a State you now don't want to hunt in right? As a resident I have to have a license to apply and you need to have one as well. They've got to get you in the system somehow right? You don't get "special privilege's" because you're out of state. You choosing to then not go to AZ to hunt or fish is now a "you" problem. All I gotta say is hard cheese. I had to buy the CO general license to be able to apply for their draw and so be it. Luckily I planned to do the OTC elk hunt regardless. There ain't no free lunch. Maybe some of you guys are spreading yourselves to thin.