BuzzH
Well-known member
Worth reading twice...at a minimum.
The new "normal" for public land elk hunters in Montana.
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MT Elk Shoulder season legislation
- Thread starter Ben Lamb
- Start date
Worth reading twice...at a minimum.
The new "normal" for public land elk hunters in Montana.
Wouldn't place much stock with aerial surveys in Region 1. Having spoken with Their (Now retired Region 1 biologist) over various subjects from native rams (Galton Range herd) to the dispersed elk population, the various steep elevations, thick forest canopy, limited open meadows / parks, and the almighty $$$, aerial surveys are very limited in scope of actual #'s and find NW MT to be an exception rather than the norm for MT.
While charts look great - the context those charts are formed reveal the challenges faced.
While assessing elk for 101/109, the aerial data is flawed. The majority of elk (main area for aerial data collection) that lumbers around the Tobacco Plains area are migratory that maintain time in Canada with very few actually routing into the U.S. within normal hunting season. Offering 50 tags for the shoulder season is flat out absurd! Especially considering the vast majority of the private land has not been turned for agriculture use - it is pure raw land - nil for damage to crops / hay, etc...
To manage shoulder hunts in the 101/109 districts based on the vague data available for Region 1 is a disservice to our elk population, transient or not...
Map of Montana forest density:
While charts look great - the context those charts are formed reveal the challenges faced.
While assessing elk for 101/109, the aerial data is flawed. The majority of elk (main area for aerial data collection) that lumbers around the Tobacco Plains area are migratory that maintain time in Canada with very few actually routing into the U.S. within normal hunting season. Offering 50 tags for the shoulder season is flat out absurd! Especially considering the vast majority of the private land has not been turned for agriculture use - it is pure raw land - nil for damage to crops / hay, etc...
To manage shoulder hunts in the 101/109 districts based on the vague data available for Region 1 is a disservice to our elk population, transient or not...
Map of Montana forest density:
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Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Therein the broader perspective.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I've heard all those same excuses for that piece of chit helicopter the FWP spends a boatload of money on for years.
Every time a count is off, they must have missed a bunch of elk due to timing of the flight, the bulls were timbered up, every excuse under the sun.
How about just do your job right, fly on good days, and due it in a timely manner? Novel idea...but not good for excuse making on why the elk populations are circling the drain.
Of course, there's that pesky check station data too...elk hunters are doing just groovy in regions 1 and 2.
Every time a count is off, they must have missed a bunch of elk due to timing of the flight, the bulls were timbered up, every excuse under the sun.
How about just do your job right, fly on good days, and due it in a timely manner? Novel idea...but not good for excuse making on why the elk populations are circling the drain.
Of course, there's that pesky check station data too...elk hunters are doing just groovy in regions 1 and 2.
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El Jason
Well-known member
Good luck Ben, the stupid is strong on this issue.
PaulRevere
Well-known member
PaulRevere
Well-known member
It was good to see the amendment to HJ 18 and that they got rid of this bullshit line >> : (4)(5) allowing two or more persons hunting in the field together during a shoulder season to collectively harvest as many antlerless elk as they collectively have valid licenses for;
El Jason
Well-known member
Should we call for a welfare check on Ben? He might be waist deep in a bottle of Blanton's.
Passed the house 58-42. Resolution amended to include public land adjacent to private property enrolled in shoulder season, publish a list of participanting landowners, and deleted party “hunting” proposal that Paul Revere notes, above.
Sioux33
Well-known member
So, if a participating ranch is adjacent to 100k acres of national forest, does that open the whole thing up? Unbelievable. All this in the day and age of advertising $8k private land bull hunts and ranch property values rising by the number of elk they can claim are there year round. If you thought public land hunting has been tough recently, just wait till the orange army is herding them back to private all the way till February.
Mtnhunter1
Well-known member
Well I guess that my crystal ball was correct again,,,,SAD!
As I stated earlier, this is a political chess match for the control of Montana’s public wildlife. The landowners, MT Stock Growers, MT Farm Group and the MT Outfitters Ass are all very, very good at playing chess! They are playing to win! Adding the public lands will prove to be the nail in the coffin, so to speak, and CHECKMATE will be coming soon. This will be lobbied as the final proof that MTFWP can’t meet the EMP numbers as the elk herds continue to grow in these HDs. Expect to see Ranching for Wildlife take over the Montana wildlife in these HDs in the near future.
During the last ten years or so, for the public lands hunter, the only really good elk hunting, in Montana, has taken place on the accessible public lands adjacent to these elk sanctuaries. Now, “the buffer zone”, hunting will also be coming to an end! With an August 15th opener, expect to see the “Shoulder Season” hunts conducted on the public with the whole intention of driving the elk out of the public and onto the private. August 15th falls a full three weeks before the opening of the archery season this year. That will be plenty of time to drive the majority of elk out of those public lands surrounding those private land elk herd safety zones. Again, this has nothing to do with elk numbers over objective and everything to do with the future control of Montana’s public wildlife, period!
Not sure that I’d be to excited about putting in for those coveted LE elk permits, archery or general, that will be effected by these changes. Good luck to all with the draw and Ben L. and others, “Thanks for trying”!
Mtnhunter1
As I stated earlier, this is a political chess match for the control of Montana’s public wildlife. The landowners, MT Stock Growers, MT Farm Group and the MT Outfitters Ass are all very, very good at playing chess! They are playing to win! Adding the public lands will prove to be the nail in the coffin, so to speak, and CHECKMATE will be coming soon. This will be lobbied as the final proof that MTFWP can’t meet the EMP numbers as the elk herds continue to grow in these HDs. Expect to see Ranching for Wildlife take over the Montana wildlife in these HDs in the near future.
During the last ten years or so, for the public lands hunter, the only really good elk hunting, in Montana, has taken place on the accessible public lands adjacent to these elk sanctuaries. Now, “the buffer zone”, hunting will also be coming to an end! With an August 15th opener, expect to see the “Shoulder Season” hunts conducted on the public with the whole intention of driving the elk out of the public and onto the private. August 15th falls a full three weeks before the opening of the archery season this year. That will be plenty of time to drive the majority of elk out of those public lands surrounding those private land elk herd safety zones. Again, this has nothing to do with elk numbers over objective and everything to do with the future control of Montana’s public wildlife, period!
Not sure that I’d be to excited about putting in for those coveted LE elk permits, archery or general, that will be effected by these changes. Good luck to all with the draw and Ben L. and others, “Thanks for trying”!
Mtnhunter1
Now is not the time to give up.
We still have the senate to contend with. Transmittal is this week, so not much activity other than floor votes for the remainder of the week, and then they're out most of next week on break.
This session is a slow burn. Lots of decent bills, but lots of bad ones as well. The bad ones are still alive, and moving. HJ 18 is still a bad bill. Keep those comments rolling in on this, on the sage grouse bill and many others. I'll have some more info as time allows during the break, but be ready for the second 1/2 of this thing. It's going to be a fairly robust debate on access, on elk and on carnivores.
And bison.
And sage grouse.
and...
We still have the senate to contend with. Transmittal is this week, so not much activity other than floor votes for the remainder of the week, and then they're out most of next week on break.
This session is a slow burn. Lots of decent bills, but lots of bad ones as well. The bad ones are still alive, and moving. HJ 18 is still a bad bill. Keep those comments rolling in on this, on the sage grouse bill and many others. I'll have some more info as time allows during the break, but be ready for the second 1/2 of this thing. It's going to be a fairly robust debate on access, on elk and on carnivores.
And bison.
And sage grouse.
and...
Wanted to circle back on the discussion related to HB 497. The new language for the bill is up.
Rep. Zach Brown made a great motion on this, and the amendment did two important things: It limits the number of B tags to 2, and it removes shoulder seasons from the bill entirely. Rep. Galt supported the amendment, and I think he & Rep Brown deserve some credit for finding the middle, and making a bad bill ok.
HJ 18 is is till problematic for a variety of reasons, so we will continue to oppose that vigorously.
Rep. Zach Brown made a great motion on this, and the amendment did two important things: It limits the number of B tags to 2, and it removes shoulder seasons from the bill entirely. Rep. Galt supported the amendment, and I think he & Rep Brown deserve some credit for finding the middle, and making a bad bill ok.
HJ 18 is is till problematic for a variety of reasons, so we will continue to oppose that vigorously.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Ben, please let us know when HJ 18 will be heard again.
I meant to post this last month but guess I never did. I figured I’d bypass the projections and assumptions about RMEF’s stance and their silence and just ask them.
That would be a ‘no we don’t plan to raise awareness around HJ18, and we support FWP’s shoulder seasons but oppose legislative meddling’
Straight from the horse’s mouth.
Mtnhunter1
Well-known member
Gomer,,, I agree, RMEF could be doing more for the average Joe sportsman in this fight. They won't, the $$$ don't bare it out for them!
Pretty simple guest column in the Missoulian written by Bill Geer, President of the Montana Wildlife Foundation.
https://missoulian.com/opinion/colu...cle_c7b6528f-02b8-5b2c-951f-f9ae8739d607.html
https://missoulian.com/opinion/colu...cle_c7b6528f-02b8-5b2c-951f-f9ae8739d607.html
