MT - Changes in Hunting Regs/Units/Seasons coming this month

[Big Fin]

The topic at hand is - changes coming to Montana hunting. Keep it to that. If you want to make personal comments about each other or the opinions and perspectives of others, take it to Facebook.

I'm done with the mud wrestling on Hunt Talk. No need for it to derail into the ditch.

 

[timmy]

The topic at hand is - changes coming to Montana hunting. Keep it to that. If you want to make personal comments about each other or the opinions and perspectives of others, take it to Facebook.

I'm done with the mud wrestling on Hunt Talk. No need for it to derail into the ditch.

And this is an important topic we are about to see.

 

[huntandfly]

@antlerradar and a good friend of his used to locate a half dozen or more 180-190 deer each year on the Custer.

That is awesome. Can’t imagine

 

[antlerradar]

What’s mature? You know they lose size and mass as they move past their prime right? Mature to you is no teeth left in the head and smaller than prime rack? I know it’s not a BIG one but shit dude it ain’t a baby and it MAY have gotten bigger next year but after that it MAY have gotten smaller thereafter. What’s mature to you? 5 with a prime set or 8 with smaller then 5 but he’s MATURE.. mature to me means reached sexual maturation. When a spike leaves the cows and becomes branch antlered that’s mature enough to be with the boys… I can understand the argument about mature meaning OLD.. in which case you can’t tell from rack. I can show you a WT that’s aged at 8+ and you’d say he’s 2-3.

This is simply not true. By age 5 or 6 deer have for the most part topped out on antler growth. They will maintain this size give or take maybe at the most 10 inches depending on conditions until they are near death and only then will they go down hill. In all my years of watching deer grow old I have only seen two whitetails that managed to survive two years after going down hill.

 

[antlerradar]

I’ll find this thread in 2-3 months
Edit. YOU find this thread in 2-3 months and show everyone wrong. Get em!

If I shoot a 170 this year I will have made a bad mistake in feed judging.

 

[Rack Daniels]

90 % of you are only on here to argue with people anyway. Y’all Just cannot get enough of it. Probably be the last time I’m on here.. unfortunate a place that brought all of us sportsman here together only came to bicker. I may be wrong in some of the stuff I say, I’m not as old or experienced, but if only 10 % of someone’s comment “not mine” is wrong don’t pick at that. Give credit. Be humble and gracious and giving to those around, not an argumentative arrogant opinionated asshole. Thanks to all on hunt talk that were ever helpful. All 2 of you. Lmfao what a joke. This IS Hunting FACEBOOK Randy. Good luck everyone. Whether you’d EVER wish luck on another or not.

 

[antlerradar]

If you are telling me that you used to pass up multiple 185” deer some days, then you are right, MT is a nightmare now. I’m not saying I don’t believe you, but that clearly isn’t a reality now.

With the explosion of popularity in western hunting, do you think something like that is ever realistic again? Maybe it is, but I think it would be very difficult to balance opportunity with those type of results

I may have under judged your dads deer, I was thinking more like 155. I do remember one day when my brother and I had 5 170+ deer spotted by 9 in the morning. At least two of them were possibly better than 185. We never got close to them as we ran into a very heavy buck with 9 inch kickers that my brother wasn't going to pass. I didn't have a tag, shot a 31 inch buck a day earlier. Another day I have chances a buck better than 185, A 30 inch three point with 19 inch G2's and nice four point in the 170's.

 

[Point Creep]

If you are telling me that you used to pass up multiple 185” deer some days, then you are right, MT is a nightmare now. I’m not saying I don’t believe you, but that clearly isn’t a reality now.

With the explosion of popularity in western hunting, do you think something like that is ever realistic again? Maybe it is, but I think it would be very difficult to balance opportunity with those type of results

Are you implying that there’s a deer in that post that’s 185?

 

[huntandfly]

I may have under judged your dads deer, I was thinking more like 155. I do remember one day when my brother and I had 5 170+ deer spotted by 9 in the morning. At least two of them were possibly better than 185. We never got close to them as we ran into a very heavy buck with 9 inch kickers that my brother wasn't going to pass. I didn't have a tag, shot a 31 inch buck a day earlier. Another day I have chances a buck better than 185, A 30 inch three point with 19 inch G2's and nice four point in the 170's.

I am 6’ 4” and my dad is 6’ 2” and I take terrible pictures (plus the eye guards are 2.5” a piece so that skews it). Also we had a friend score it who has done it a lot but not official.

That sounds like some pretty incredible deer hunting. Did the season dates in the 90’s encompass the rut?

 

[huntandfly]

Are you implying that there’s a deer in that post that’s 185?

No. I’m bad at judging deer but not that bad, he said +20” over my dads

 

[timmy]

Who cares on topic don’t lock this thread.

 

[BuzzH]

90 % of you are only on here to argue with people anyway. Y’all Just cannot get enough of it. Probably be the last time I’m on here.. unfortunate a place that brought all of us sportsman here together only came to bicker. I may be wrong in some of the stuff I say, I’m not as old or experienced, but if only 10 % of someone’s comment “not mine” is wrong don’t pick at that. Give credit. Be humble and gracious and giving to those around, not an argumentative arrogant opinionated asshole. Thanks to all on hunt talk that were ever helpful. All 2 of you. Lmfao what a joke. This IS Hunting FACEBOOK Randy. Good luck everyone. Whether you’d EVER wish luck on another or not.

I think many are trying to help you, in particular antlerradar...would be smart to listen to him in regard to deer, ages, and antler growth as they age. I don't think he and many others are wanting to argue, they have a lot of experience and knowledge they're trying to share.

I think another problem is that many, and if I'm wrong, I apologize, guys like you try to compare elk and mule deer to whitetail in how and when their racks are as big as they'll get.

Its really possible to have a B&C whitetail buck at 3-5 years old, that's very, very rare in mule deer and elk. I think nearly double that age for a great elk or mule deer, normally. Always outliers for sure. That's why Greenhorn, Timmy, antlerradar, myself have been begging the FWP to make changes to increase the age class...to give bucks and bulls the chance to truly mature to their potential.

I think that's the point of this thread, that the MTFWP is doing NOTHING to help with improving the age classes of elk and deer and that their new direction will likely make things worse.

I also believe the point of the thread is to try to predict what negative changes are about to come, none of which will improve age structure, populations, or hunting quality on public lands for elk and mule deer.

I would hate to be having this same discussion in the future when you're saying, "Man, I remember when we had all kinds of 2-4 year old bucks, now we can't find anything over 2"...because I think that's where its headed.

That's what some of us already experienced, being able to find nice old bucks and now everything is dead by age 3.

I don't think anyone has answers and in particular answers that won't come with a significant cost to opportunity.

Montana hunting is headed down a rougher road than its already on, and from what I'm also hearing, things are going to be getting worse.

 

[Gerald Martin]

@FoodIsMemories and @huntandfly. Not to be a jerk, but you are conversing with arguably some of the most successful hunters in MT on trophy class animals. They are not only speaking from their experience but also the experience of friends and acquaintances who are equally as passionate.

When most folks say they have done this or that they don’t have proof to back it up. Spend some time searching for posts and threads of the guys you say don’t know what they’re talking about.
Some of these guys posting are a bit salty because they are pissed off at the squandering of one of the greatest places to hunt in the world.
It wouldn’t have to be this way if more hunters cared about good game management instead of notched tags. We get the crumbs left from management decisions that are often diametrically opposed to our interests. It’s like being slapped in the face and then hearing how nice it is to be slapped in the face because getting punched hurts worse.

 

[Point Creep]

MT hunting is headed 100% down the road of be entirely managed by private landowners or those leasing it, at whatever their discretion is, regardless of any impact on public land or the actual herd itself. There will be some great hunting on some private land because there is so much of it in MT. But, where caution isn’t used- more of the private will end up just like the public, dogshit, and that will spread to the neighbors, their neighbors, and anything that jumps the fence onto BLM or USFS.

 

[El Jason]

I’ve visited with some very intelligent folks over the years with respect to wildlife management. Regardless of whether you like or agree with what @antlerradar is saying, you’d be well served to listen closely. Same with Buzz. Never visited with Greenhorn, but his hunting photos speak for themselves. There’s a lot of BS floating around in this thread and it ain’t from them.

 

[Gerald Martin]

MT hunting is headed 100% down the road of be entirely managed by private landowners or those leasing it, at whatever their discretion is, regardless of any impact on public land or the actual herd itself. There will be some great hunting on some private land because there is so much of it in MT. But, where caution isn’t used- more of the private will end up just like the public, dogshit, and that will spread to the neighbors, their neighbors, and anything that jumps the fence onto BLM or USFS.

I agree. And the incredibly sad thing is with better management the public @private could be just as good because management strategies were similar.

 

[Gerald Martin]

If FWP made region 7 a special permit zone with 1/3 the number of hunters and a season that ended two weeks earlier you would see an increase in age class and quality of mule deer that would be amazing.

 

[huntandfly]

@FoodIsMemories and @huntandfly. Not to be a jerk, but you are conversing with arguably some of the most successful hunters in MT on trophy class animals.

Thanks man, I appreciate the advice. I have tried to reiterate in multiple posts my lack of experience in comparison to y’all and also how I agree that improvements to game management in Montana need to be made. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear enough.

Edit: I will say that the main point of my original posts was to say that this sounds a little bit like an echo chamber every time I hop on here, and that is not usually a good way to generate ideas to bridge some of the gaps between the some of the most successful trophy hunters in MT and your average Joe hunter.

Back on track: if (or more likely when) these new proposals come out and are even worse for game management in the state, what is the best way for a non resident to speak out against them or advocate for change in the other direction?

 

[timmy]

And if you go look at the commission agenda for the Aug 20 meeting and how they justify what they are doing it gives you little to no hope for any change. They have it spelled out they rail against anything but opportunity. It’s going to get worse. Some people can see it some people can’t or don’t care. It’s also a boring read but I went through it.

 

[Big Fin]

Well, this went to hell quickly. Anyone interested in interacting in a beneficial manner? This is could one of the biggest changes we will see to Montana hunting in our lifetimes.

If you want more details of why I started this thread, here goes.

I've been getting a lot of comments from folks in Helena about stuff that is being crafted in Helena. If it turns out to be what I have been told, it is bad, really bad. I wanted to get it out there for public discussion, raise awareness of the shit sandwich being prepared, and hopefully get information from others who might be hearing the same. And, let the HT crowd and the lurkers know what's coming and not be surprised when it gets rolled out in the coming weeks.

When Helena folks reach out to ask "What will your audience think if we make some big changes?" I've been around long enough to know those changes won't be good. They never test the water with the good ideas. They know Hunt Talk and its members are some of the most qualified and effective in the state.

The reality is that this big change is coming from the Governor's office. When pressure comes from that close circle, the Governor/staff tell the Director what to do. The appoints the Commission based on recommendations from that close circle. All things go back to him and his office.

If you want to put pressure where these ideas originate, here is the Governor's contact information - https://svc.mt.gov/gov/contact/shareopinion

Here is the Directors information - Phone (406) 444-3186

Here is the Commissioners' page on the website (all 5 emails are there) - https://fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/commission


It is the people we voted for who are applying the pressure for changes. The Governor is listening to them, not us. Yes, a lot could be changed that would be positive, but if I was allowed to bet on the outcome of the changes that I'm aware of, I would bet they are overwhelmingly negative.

Contact your Rep and your Senator. This map will let you know who they are and their contact information - https://leg.mt.gov/map/

Hacking on other Hunt Talkers isn't going to solve the problem. Making snide remarks of others isn't going to solve the problem, rather it plays into the hands of those crafting the bad ideas.

The only thing these folks pushing bad ideas care about is getting re-elected. Those of us who voted for them are their ticket to that re-election. They are most likely to listen to the people who voted for them. We gonna give them a free pass, or are we gonna let them know this shit has to stop?

Contact them.

Unfortunately, they have scheduled many of the public meetings during archery seasons. How convenient. Lots of us will be afield when those happen.

We will have more impact contacting the Governor, the Director, the Commission, and our Legislators than any of the public comment compiled by the unfortunate FWP employee who will bear the brunt of the pissed off public. That is how they want it - make shitty policy and send the staff out to take the brow beating.

A lot of staffers are concerned about what is coming down the pike. They are at risk to go into much details. When these field staff are like Fort Knox when ask for information, I know it is not something they are excited about.

Some will say it is science-based changes, yet never forget that policy makers often believe that wildlife management is an art of managing people, while the real science is the science of politics and sociology. Drafts read to me show this will place reductions on the emphasis given to public comment, with "public comment" being my choice of words as opposed to the sanitized synonyms they will use.

I hope I am wrong in raising this alarm, but I seriously doubt it. If what I have seen and heard is correct, this will be a bigger change to MT hunting than shoulder seasons.

I would ask all of you to reach out to anyone you know who might have some information and share it here. And when the time comes to comment on these changes, don't just comment on the FWP link, rather comment to the people who hope to avoid the comments - the Governor, the Director, the Commission, and your Legislators.

Carry on, but please keep this beneficial. We can have these conversations with out driving the thread off the rails. This thread is going to be too important for it to be locked by a few.