Montana General Season Structure Proposal 3.0

[Gerald Martin]

These arent real answers, gerald

1. You are completly ignoring the lack of other opportunities that exist when antelope are out. Nothing - besided fall black bear is currently open when speedgoat season opener is. It will change how people hunt period.

2. People can then hunt MD for 4 weeks and then white tail for 4 weeks? How you funding the bloating BMA expense?

3. The reason that the oct private land only season exists is why rifle hunting is going to be much worse. Its written all over HT that non consumptive (we need a better name?) users like hikers/bikers bump elk and disturb them all the time. Rifle hunters targetting mule deer will do so - much faster than archery which will also be doing it earlier.

4. A week long gap (of no rifles/hunters) is significantly different than no gap of gunshots.

Those aren’t real questions, Forky.

1. Antelope licenses are on limited quota. There will be less people heading afield with both an antelope license and a mule deer license than there are currently hunting with OTC deer/elk licenses. Incidental harvest of folks hunting antelope/mule deer isn’t a major concern for increased mule deer harvest.

2. Your original question could have been interpreted multiple ways. I understood it in the context of hunters hunting both antelope and early deer, rather than early and late deer. The way I interpreted it, there’s no reason to keep hunters from hunting both seasons. The question as you meant it of how to keep hunters from hunting both early deer and late deer, the answer to that is the same way that we keep hunters from shooting a deer without a permit in a LE deer area while they’re hunting general regulation elk in the same area. Your license is designated at the time of purchase as being valid for the season you choose. Poachers are going to poach relative to the quality of their character if our proposal is implemented just as poachers poach relative to the quality of their character under current regulations. That’s not going to change with changes to regulations. Not only that but with required mandatory reporting of harvest, there will be an additional level of accountability to check whether hunters are harvesting an animal in the time frame their license is valid for.

3. The only direct harvest pressure on elk during the early private land cow season is on private land. Under current regulations, the direct pressure of archery hunter is a major factor of moving elk from public to private. Reversing that direct pressure to private before the opener of general elk season may (emphasis on may) help move elk back towards public before the general opener. It will (emphasis on will) give landowners who want to move elk away from agriculture earlier in the season an opportunity for that. It will give hunters with access to private property additional opportunity to harvest an antlerless elk. It will give FWP another tool to bring elk into population objectives for each district since the opportunity for antlerless harvest is tied to either an antlerless permit, a B license or either-sex license depending on the population objectives and regulations of each individual district.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Many words and little logic

Ill make this simple.

Do non-consumptive users affect elk patterns? If yes, why would HUNTERS with RIFLES somehow not?

Its a lot different than Wyoming - they arent near universally safe in valleys like they are in MT.

 

[El Jason]

As far as "why/how/what" on a LE proposal and how itd work - ive got no interest working through the details here. I don't think anyone associated with LE proposal feels any different. I shouldnt really need to explain why.

Maybe instead of making the same assertions about incidental harvest of mule deer by antelope permit holders, and the “ruining” of elk hunting by opening a private land cow season early (both ridiculous IMO), you could sit down and draft a proposal for your thoughts. This would include the why/what/how they Art asked and you refused to answer.

Art and I have kicked a lot of rocks while talking mule deer management. I can guarantee you there are few folks in Montana who care more about mule deer than he does. When he asks questions, you’d be well served to entertain the discussion with him.

 

[BuzzH]

Edit: in addition to that - no where in wyoming is the season open on deer for a month and then elk after.

Really? Archery deer where I hunt general elk is open the entire Month of September, straight into rifle deer Oct 1-10/14 depending on deer numbers, with rifle elk starting on October 15. To blow your mind, and theory of rifle deer hunters pushing elk off publi out of the water even further, youth hunters can rifle hunt both deer (when Oct 10 closer) the 13/14 of October, plus also rifle hunt elk on those same days, prior to the Oct. 15 general opener. Yet, elk aren't all run off public.

Again, the season length and timing of the seasons are the most critical, as well as concurrent seasons. The deer and elk seasons for general tags not running concurrently in Wyoming, reduces pressure on both. Most people that only hunt casually, do not have the vacation time to hunt say a 14 day deer season, then another 16 days for general elk. Lets be honest, other than retired folks, .gov workers, or unemployed people who has the vacation for 30 days a year?

They have to choose, sure they may hunt the few weekend days for deer, then take their vacation and hunt elk harder, or vice-versa.

Besides all that, deer hunting right prior to the elk seasons, doesn't do shit to decrease elk harvest here. What pushes elk onto private is elk hunting for 12+weeks on PUBLIC land.

You need to get out of Montana, you've been brain-washed into believing that the only way to kill elk and deer is to have 12 weeks of brown its down when they're the most vulnerable.

No reason to go LQ statewide for elk and deer if you limit season length and timing and give things a little bit of thought management wise.

There's a reason I no longer live in Montana. Its sad too, because Montana probably has the potential to be much better than Wyoming for elk and deer.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Really? Archery deer where I hunt general elk is open the entire Month of September, straight into rifle deer Oct 1-10/14 depending on deer numbers, with rifle elk starting on October 15.

Again, the season length and timing of the seasons are the most critical, as well as concurrent seasons. The deer and elk seasons for general tags not running concurrently in Wyoming, reduces pressure on both. Most people that only hunt casually, do not have the vacation time to hunt say a 14 day deer season, then another 16 days for general elk. Lets be honest, other than retired folks, .gov workers, or unemployed people who has the vacation for 30 days a year?

They have to choose, sure they may hunt the few weekend days for deer, then take their vacation and hunt elk harder, or vice-versa.

Besides all that, deer hunting right prior to the elk seasons, doesn't do shit to decrease elk harvest here. What pushes elk onto private is elk hunting for 12+weeks on PUBLIC land.

You need to get out of Montana, you've been brain-washed into believing that the only way to kill elk and deer is to have 12 weeks of brown its down when they're the most vulnerable.

No reason to go LQ statewide for elk and deer if you limit season length and timing and gives things a little bit of thought management wise.

There's a reason I no longer live in Montana. Its sad too, because Montana probably has the potential to be much better than Wyoming for elk and deer.

Meant *rifle*

I agree that our long gen seasons are a problem. Id knock a week off the end of each of them, at least. Im not at all brainwashed into thinking the season length is beneficial to hunting - i feel the opposite.

 

[BuzzH]

Ill make this simple.

Do non-consumptive users affect elk patterns? If yes, why would HUNTERS with RIFLES somehow not?

Its a lot different than Wyoming - they arent near universally safe in valleys like they are in MT.

I'll make it even simpler, does a non-consumptive user affect elk patterns more than guys shooting them with bows during the rut, and in ass-deep snow until late November with rifles?

Somehow I don't think Grandma watching birds on public land in September-December and accidently bumping a herd of elk is nearly as impactful as guys killing them that entire time.

Just my opinion.

Also, elk behave the same way in Wyoming and yes, elk have all kinds of access to the safety of private in the lowlands, valleys, and on large ranches within public land holdings as well. The difference is, our seasons aren't long enough to force elk completely off public and change up how they use the public lands. We also tend to target the right elk to kill in over-objective situations.

Its not rocket science.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I'll make it even simpler, does a non-consumptive user affect elk patterns more than guys shooting them with bows during the rut, and in ass-deep snow until late November with rifles?

Somehow I don't think Grandma watching birds on public land in September-December and accidently bumping a herd of elk is nearly as impactful as guys killing them that entire time.

Just my opinion.

Also, elk behave the same way in Wyoming and yes, elk have all kinds of access to the safety of private in the lowlands, valleys, and on large ranches within public land holdings as well. The difference is, our seasons aren't long enough to force elk completely off public and change up how they use the public lands. We also tend to target the right elk to kill in over-objective situations.

Its not rocket science.

Hows that working out in Unit 7?

Bow hunters will push them more than bird watching grandma. Theyll also push them a LOT less than rifle hunters.

 

[BuzzH]

Meant *rifle*

I agree that our long gen seasons are a problem. Id knock a week off the end of each of them, at least. Im not at all brainwashed into thinking the season length is beneficial to hunting - i feel the opposite.

Try having deer seasons in Montana for mule deer Oct. 1-14, elk from Oct. 15-31 like Wyoming does.

You'll find out right quick you don't need 12 weeks to fill tags in pretty short order. Elk and deer can withstand a couple weeks of pressure, they can't take it for 12 weeks.

It's even worse now than in the past, lots more really good, really dedicated hunters that have better equipment, more time, and more money to do it. These younger guys are tough bastards too, and combined with that better equipment...there isn't anywhere too far. Give them 12 weeks to get it done, I sure as shit wouldn't want to be a deer or elk in Montana on public land.

 

[mtmuley]

There's a reason I no longer live in Montana.

But, it's still OK to come back and hunt. Interesting. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

Hows that working out in Unit 7?

Bow hunters will push them more than bird watching grandma. Theyll also push them a LOT less than rifle hunters.

Oh yeah? When was the last time you hunted 7? I've hunted it every year for the past 15+ years.

Archery hunters push elk on private a lot more than rifle hunters in both units 7 and 19. Its a big enough problem that landowners, outfitters, and the public are trying to address it. The biggest cry babies are the archery hunters. They bitch that all the elk are on private, so they're trying to limit archery pressure with license types in both.

 

[SAJ-99]

People are selfish.

And bored, apparently. 21 pages in the third thread debating ideas that have no chance of being implemented because…people are selfish.

 

[BuzzH]

But, it's still OK to come back and hunt. Interesting. mtmuley

Not much for elk these days. I haven't shot an elk in Montana for a long time, last one was in the breaks in 2014. Prior to that, 2009 and 2010 I shot bulls in general units and felt bad doing it. I quit hunting those elk altogether after 2010.

I've felt like I'm shooting the last passenger pigeon killing one in a general area. NO question harming the resource and sure as shit not killing the surplus for management.

That's 180 degrees from how I feel about killing elk in Wyoming.

 

[mtmuley]

Not much for elk these days. I haven't shot an elk in Montana for a long time, last one was in the breaks.

I've felt like I'm shooting the last passenger pigeon killing one in a general area. NO question harming the resource and sure as shit not killing the surplus for management.

That's 180 degrees from how I feel about killing elk in Wyoming.

Buzz, it's OK to kill an elk in Montana. They aren't extinct. Could it be better? Hell yes. But to say you don't live here because of FWP is a stretch. I hope the elk I kill this year isn't the last one in Montana. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, it's OK to kill an elk in Montana. They aren't extinct. Could it be better? Hell yes. But to say you don't live here because of FWP is a stretch. I hope the elk I kill this year isn't the last one in Montana. mtmuley

I disagree that it's OK to kill elk in many areas of Montana these days. When the FWP flies the units West of Missoula and see 8 elk, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that its OK to shoot what little is left, let alone justify 12 weeks of general OTC hunting. The general unit I hunt is questionable, at best, and if not for the reservation, there would be even less bulls and elk.

That's exactly why I don't live in Montana, hunting is a high priority for me and Montana isn't close to what it was prior to 2000, fact.

There's 49 other states I could have moved to that all allow hunting, not by chance that Wyoming is where I ended up.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need an unlimited LQ permit to kill elk in your "general" area?

 

[mtmuley]

I disagree that it's OK to kill elk in many areas of Montana these days. When the FWP flies the units West of Missoula and see 8 elk, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that its OK to shoot what little is left, let alone justify 12 weeks of general OTC hunting. The general unit I hunt is questionable, at best, and if not for the reservation, there would be even less bulls and elk.

That's exactly why I don't live in Montana, hunting is a high priority for me and Montana isn't close to what it was prior to 2000, fact.

There's 49 other states I could have moved to that all allow hunting, not by chance that Wyoming is where I ended up.

Yeah. Hunting is available in any state regardless of where you live. I'm gonna hunt and kill a bull here in the Root and not lose any sleep. The whole state of Montana isn't devoid of elk. Thanks for not killing one though. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah. Hunting is available in any state regardless of where you live. I'm gonna hunt and kill a bull here in the Root and not lose any sleep. The whole state of Montana isn't devoid of elk. Thanks for not killing one though. mtmuley

I kill at least 3 a year and don't need 12 weeks to do it.

So, do you get the unlimited permit for the root?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Ill make this simple.

Do non-consumptive users affect elk patterns? If yes, why would HUNTERS with RIFLES somehow not?

Its a lot different than Wyoming - they arent near universally safe in valleys like they are in MT.

You want to make complex things simple. That’s not the way the real world works.
Non-consumptive use does and doesn’t affect elk patterns. It’s entirely dependent on time, place and intensity of the indirect pressure.

Intense non-consumptive use during calving season in certain areas where elk and hikes/bikers overlap during the time calves are being dropped has been shown to have population level effect in parts of Colorado.

Human disturbance of elk on their winter range where elk are concentrated by lack of suitable habitat and deep snow in the area can definitely affect their patterns and population.

Intense non-consumptive activity in less critical times of year has much less effect. Take for example the concentration of Labor Day foot and ATV traffic on trails and roads and their effect on elk. They might move away from roads and trails when bumped but they don’t leave the general area.


There may be areas where the indirect pressure of deer hunters move elk. There will be areas where it has little if any effect.

 

[mtmuley]

So, do you get the unlimited permit for the root?

I assume you mean the cow tag for private land right? mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

I assume yo mean the cow tag for private land right? mtmuley

No, the 270-45 permit. Having that in the Root not only helps 270, but also the bordering units.

Probably should be that way statewide, pick your general area and no hopping all around the state.

 

[mtmuley]

No, the 270-45 permit. Having that in the Root not only helps 270, but also the bordering units.

Probably should be that way statewide.

I don't hunt that far South. I pick up a "farm lands" tag every year just in case. That isn't a bad idea though. Maybe lose points if drawn? mtmuley