Its all about perspective!

[Dsnow9]

-I write this from two perspectives, one being a lifelong hunter and am now 77. The other being a field biologist and science educator having taught high school biology, chemistry, and ecology.

Where I fish, the regulations forbid taking a native, non-hatchery trout over a certain size. Such fish are considered to be ecological/genetic treasure chests.

I feel the same way about superb examples of deer, elk, pronghorn, mountain sheep or goats. If i had it my way, any of these species, over a certain size would be off-limits unless a hunter drew a rare trophy animal tag. For example, any deer over a 3x3, could not be killed without such a tag.

Having hunters most always be selecting out the best specimens is just plain "Bad Biology" . Once one begins to study this topic, the consequences to wildlife become overwhelming.

I’ll save em for the rest of ya! I’ll take care of the forkies and dinks. It’s my specialty!

 

[Rack Daniels]

Just the way I’m gathering this…

You’re coming from Texas to buy 7200 acres in historic Missouri River Breaks country, with a staunch no-access mindset, so you can keep game animals happy on your piece of private in hopes of playing biologist and breeding better bucks on your own section…. Sweet. Sounds about par for new Montana landowners….

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I believe that we can approach our life's decisions from two basically different stances. I will describe them metaphorically as being either up-right or upside-down.

Let me offer some different examples. My mother's side of my family were dairy farmers. My father's side were residential builders. I learned both occupation's, have been both.

When circumstances required trimming down the herd, we kept the best, sold the lesser cattle.

When winter came in my Native New England, construction layoffs were often unavoidable. So, who did a contractor keep? The "thrive not survive answer" was always to keep the best workers with the most experience, who could be the core of the spring crew.

This ego habit which has persisted for so many thousands of years, by with hunters methodically seek out and kill the best specimens prior to winter, is from a logic healthy herd standpoint, simply ridiculous.

Native People did not do that, why eat tougher meat anyway?
Predators did not take out the best. Actually, most often the predator prey relationship was such a close match that game animals in their prime had a significant edge, so the dumb young, the sick and the old were culled out making the herd more vital.

Enter modern hunting tools from crossbows to guns and what has happened is that we are culling out the best to hang racks and horns on the wall after reading "monster bucks and bulls mags."

What comes next from field bio studies, is a proven fact that these great specimens are very often a sub-gene pool of survival excellence that has been honed by natural selection over many thousands of years.

Way too many hunters, most even, have been destroying the best for way too long. They are not up-right, but upside-down.

 

[Rack Daniels]

I believe that we can approach our life's decisions from two basically different stances. I will describe them metaphorically as being either up-right or upside-down.

Let me offer some different examples. My mother's side of my family were dairy farmers. My father's side were residential builders. I learned both occupation's, have been both.

When circumstances required trimming down the herd, we kept the best, sold the lesser cattle.

When winter came in my Native New England, construction layoffs were often unavoidable. So, who did a contractor keep? The "thrive not survive answer" was always to keep the best workers with the most experience, who could be the core of the spring crew.

This ego habit which has persisted for so many thousands of years, by with hunters methodically seek out and kill the best specimens prior to winter, is from a logic healthy herd standpoint, simply ridiculous.

Native People did not do that, why eat tougher meat anyway?
Predators did not take out the best. Actually, most often the predator prey relationship was such a close match that game animals in their prime had a significant edge, so the dumb young, the sick and the old were culled out making the herd more vital.

Enter modern hunting tools from crossbows to guns and what has happened is that we are culling out the best to hang racks and horns on the wall after reading "monster bucks and bulls mags."

What comes next from field bio studies, is a proven fact that these great specimens are very often a sub-gene pool of survival excellence that has been honed by natural selection over many thousands of years.

Way too many hunters, most even, have been destroying the best for way too long. They are not up-right, but upside-down.

Well said! ForkyGang por vida!!

 

[Northwoods]

My thoughts on this are not going to be popular.

This culture of needing to kill big mature animals and the buck/bull shaming that goes with it is ruining what hunting should be, IMHO. Most of us are all guilty of it. We like to blame influencers, etc. and not take accountability for the dumb a$$ hunting culture that we’ve created. Many hunters honestly feel it’s not a good hunt unless the hunter takes a beautiful mature animal. Additionally, they get upset with the guy/gal that is happy to be out in the woods and takes home a lesser better eating animal.

If hunters want to kill only big mature animals that are rutted up and chewy that’s fine. It’s their hunt but they need to be a little open minded about the competitive, prideful culture they are creating. Personally, I’m really beginning to believe it’s better for the heard to let the mature animals bread.

Unfortunately, there is no going back. We will have to live with what we’ve created. No way are we going to be able to greatly reduce tags and convince hunters to leave the big mature breaders in the woods simultaneously. Plus, little bucks don’t get social media likes and some men need those big antlers on the wall to compensate for other things.

I’m not saying I won’t ever shoot another big one, but trophy animals and antlers are not at all a factor anymore in why, where, and what I hunt.

 

[Gr8bawana]

I don't know when it became shameful to take a forky or a small 3 point buck. For me at least I get the most enjoyment out of the hunt itself.
I'll certainly shoot a big buck if the opportunity presents itself but I'm not going to be shamed by some who feels I should only take a trophy animal.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

My thoughts on this are not going to be popular.

This culture of needing to kill big mature animals and the buck/bull shaming that goes with it is ruining what hunting should be, IMHO. Most of us are all guilty of it. We like to blame influencers, etc. and not take accountability for the dumb a$$ hunting culture that we’ve created. Many hunters honestly feel it’s not a good hunt unless the hunter takes a beautiful mature animal. Additionally, they get upset with the guy/gal that is happy to be out in the woods and takes home a lesser better eating animal.

If hunters want to kill only big mature animals that are rutted up and chewy that’s fine. It’s their hunt but they need to be a little open minded about the competitive, prideful culture they are creating. Personally, I’m really beginning to believe it’s better for the heard to let the mature animals bread.

Unfortunately, there is no going back. We will have to live with what we’ve created. No way are we going to be able to greatly reduce tags and convince hunters to leave the big mature breaders in the woods simultaneously. Plus, little bucks don’t get social media likes and some men need those big antlers on the wall to compensate for other things.

I’m not saying I won’t ever shoot another big one, but trophy animals and antlers are not at all a factor anymore in why, where, and what I hunt.

Below is a link to a book on hunting, which i think is the best on the subject I have ever read. It was the only book on hunting the author ever wrote but he is highly regarded as a writer in other areas.

In this 1993 book, He broke down hunters evenly into three groups: meat hunters, trophy hunters and what he named as "Eco-hunters".

I really felt he hit the nail on the head, with that call,,,,then.

Going back to the late 70's/early 80's there seemed to be so many hunters back then that, like me came out of what I named "The Whole Earth Movement" We had land, grew our food, and hunting became the next logical step in returning to a richer life connecting with nature on a deeper responsible level.

I participated in many fall harvest real Thanksgivings long ago, which lasted a full weekend where all the food was grown, trout caught or game hunted. We ate deer, wild turkey, grouse and goose. Typically, most of the men owned one big game rifle, a shotgun and .22.

Also, typically we selected out younger buck deer, tender of course and rarely would anyone even want to shoot an older tougher buck.

It was a great wildlife restorative era, deer were coming back, the rewards of the wilderness acts were seeing great rebounds in elk numbers. The New Rocky Mt Elk Foundation was in line with the best principles of field biology and was receiving conservation awards from the likes of the Murie Foundation. Olaus Mure is justly named as the Father of Elk Conservation in North America.

But how things have changed.

I think maybe 1 in 10 hunters would now qualify as Eco-Hunters, and in their place are super long-range shooters calling themselves hunters,

Next the RMEF has so shifted its positions from wildlife biology/ecology basics that The Murie Foundation no longer gives the RMEF their conservation award.


I have several rifles now but not a one is more valued by me than my Belgium Browning Safari grade bolt action 30-06. I bought it used in 1970 for $180. I had to make payments. It still has the same 4x Weaver scope on it as the day I bought it as a college graduation present to myself.

Offering a financial perspective, the TOTAL tuition costs for four years at a state university back then was $400.

You could take a scraping of its beautiful French Walnut stock, and it would test positive for my DNA.

To make a point regarding this discussion, this is the rifle I took hunting when I drew a Desert Bighorn tag,,,on my very first application attempt ! For many years when their populations were critically low, I refused to even apply for points.
When their numbers really increased, only then did I apply for the most rugged of all wilderness zone

After days of deep hunting, glassing to find them, then a two-hour stalk, there were two bighorn rams 125 away. One was huge, broomed full curl in his prime. Next to him was a fine fat 3/4 curl, chocolate brown young ram with golden horns, which without hesitation i shot. I left the big boy to pass on his genetic treasure chest.

Ending the life of that great ram with my rifle, would have been for me, as a field biologist and an Eco-Hunter, an obscene act.

The young ram tasted great.

MR

Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt (Kodansha Globe): Kerasote, Ted: 9781568360270: Amazon.com: Books

Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt (Kodansha Globe) [Kerasote, Ted] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt (Kodansha Globe)

www.amazon.com

 

[Mustangs Rule]

My thoughts on this are not going to be popular.

This culture of needing to kill big mature animals and the buck/bull shaming that goes with it is ruining what hunting should be, IMHO. Most of us are all guilty of it. We like to blame influencers, etc. and not take accountability for the dumb a$$ hunting culture that we’ve created. Many hunters honestly feel it’s not a good hunt unless the hunter takes a beautiful mature animal. Additionally, they get upset with the guy/gal that is happy to be out in the woods and takes home a lesser better eating animal.

If hunters want to kill only big mature animals that are rutted up and chewy that’s fine. It’s their hunt but they need to be a little open minded about the competitive, prideful culture they are creating. Personally, I’m really beginning to believe it’s better for the heard to let the mature animals bread.

Unfortunately, there is no going back. We will have to live with what we’ve created. No way are we going to be able to greatly reduce tags and convince hunters to leave the big mature breaders in the woods simultaneously. Plus, little bucks don’t get social media likes and some men need those big antlers on the wall to compensate for other things.

I’m not saying I won’t ever shoot another big one, but trophy animals and antlers are not at all a factor anymore in why, where, and what I hunt.

thank you for your supportive post.

 

[Uplander]

Just the way I’m gathering this…

You’re coming from Texas to buy 7200 acres in historic Missouri River Breaks country, with a staunch no-access mindset, so you can keep game animals happy on your piece of private in hopes of playing biologist and breeding better bucks on your own section…. Sweet. Sounds about par for new Montana landowners….

Just the way IM gathering this….

Were you in my shoes and had spent your life working to purchase a place like this, you WOULD allow anyone who asks access? You WOULDNT do what you could to keep animals happy there? You WOULDNT like to have a sanctuary allowing as many animals as possible a shot at maturity? Sweet. Sounds about par for a hypocrite.

 

[antlerradar]

Below is a link to a book on hunting, which i think is the best on the subject I have ever read. It was the only book on hunting the author ever wrote but he is highly regarded as a writer in other areas.

In this 1993 book, He broke down hunters evenly into three groups: meat hunters, trophy hunters and what he named as "Eco-hunters".

I really felt he hit the nail on the head, with that call,,,,then.

Going back to the late 70's/early 80's there seemed to be so many hunters back then that, like me came out of what I named "The Whole Earth Movement" We had land, grew our food, and hunting became the next logical step in returning to a richer life connecting with nature on a deeper responsible level.

I participated in many fall harvest real Thanksgivings long ago, which lasted a full weekend where all the food was grown, trout caught or game hunted. We ate deer, wild turkey, grouse and goose. Typically, most of the men owned one big game rifle, a shotgun and .22.

Also, typically we selected out younger buck deer, tender of course and rarely would anyone even want to shoot an older tougher buck.

It was a great wildlife restorative era, deer were coming back, the rewards of the wilderness acts were seeing great rebounds in elk numbers. The New Rocky Mt Elk Foundation was in line with the best principles of field biology and was receiving conservation awards from the likes of the Murie Foundation. Olaus Mure is justly named as the Father of Elk Conservation in North America.

But how things have changed.

I think maybe 1 in 10 hunters would now qualify as Eco-Hunters, and in their place are super long-range shooters calling themselves hunters,

Next the RMEF has so shifted its positions from wildlife biology/ecology basics that The Murie Foundation no longer gives the RMEF their conservation award.


I have several rifles now but not a one is more valued by me than my Belgium Browning Safari grade bolt action 30-06. I bought it used in 1970 for $180. I had to make payments. It still has the same 4x Weaver scope on it as the day I bought it as a college graduation present to myself.

Offering a financial perspective, the TOTAL tuition costs for four years at a state university back then was $400.

You could take a scraping of its beautiful French Walnut stock, and it would test positive for my DNA.

To make a point regarding this discussion, this is the rifle I took hunting when I drew a Desert Bighorn tag,,,on my very first application attempt ! For many years when their populations were critically low, I refused to even apply for points.
When their numbers really increased, only then did I apply for the most rugged of all wilderness zone

After days of deep hunting, glassing to find them, then a two-hour stalk, there were two bighorn rams 125 away. One was huge, broomed full curl in his prime. Next to him was a fine fat 3/4 curl, chocolate brown young ram with golden horns, which without hesitation i shot. I left the big boy to pass on his genetic treasure chest.

Ending the life of that great ram with my rifle, would have been for me, as a field biologist and an Eco-Hunter, an obscene act.

The young ram tasted great.

MR

Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt (Kodansha Globe): Kerasote, Ted: 9781568360270: Amazon.com: Books

Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt (Kodansha Globe) [Kerasote, Ted] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt (Kodansha Globe)

www.amazon.com

I agree with much of what you have to say in this post and others you posted to this thread.
While it would be nice if hunters could magically turn themselves back to the 1970's, it is not going to happen. hunters are never going back to just filling their tags on the first buck they see. It is up to game mangers to install regulations that reduce hunters ability to be selective and at the same time allow hunters like @Dsnow9 to fill their tags most years. It is not going to be an easy neadle to thread.
Game mangers and other hunters are also going to have to come to grips with more and more landowners are going to be closer to the OP than the landowners of the past. The access I enjoined in the 1970's is never going to come back. I have my doubts that the OP can manage as effectively as he wants on the amount of acreage he has. Likely going to take some like minded neighbors for that. What he can and will do is make his property more attractive to the game and as a result any nearby public land will be come less attractive. Game managers are going to have to adjust to the new reality.

 

[SaskHunter]

I'm all for shooting dinks, I've shot plenty myself.

My problem with people who shoot dinks is when it's an influencer who acts like an absolute badass who had to go through a life-changing quest in order to shoot said forky.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I agree with much of what you have to say in this post and others you posted to this thread.
While it would be nice if hunters could magically turn themselves back to the 1970's, it is not going to happen. hunters are never going back to just filling their tags on the first buck they see. It is up to game mangers to install regulations that reduce hunters ability to be selective and at the same time allow hunters like @Dsnow9 to fill their tags most years. It is not going to be an easy neadle to thread.
Game mangers and other hunters are also going to have to come to grips with more and more landowners are going to be closer to the OP than the landowners of the past. The access I enjoined in the 1970's is never going to come back. I have my doubts that the OP can manage as effectively as he wants on the amount of acreage he has. Likely going to take some like minded neighbors for that. What he can and will do is make his property more attractive to the game and as a result any nearby public land will be come less attractive. Game managers are going to have to adjust to the new reality.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

For the record, regarding Buck deer I do not support shooting spike deer. give them another year. Minimum 2x1. a fork on one side. Maximum legal 3x3, with a special draw/app tag for any buck over 3x3

 

[Rack Daniels]

Just the way IM gathering this….

Were you in my shoes and had spent your life working to purchase a place like this, you WOULD allow anyone who asks access? You WOULDNT do what you could to keep animals happy there? You WOULDNT like to have a sanctuary allowing as many animals as possible a shot at maturity? Sweet. Sounds about par for a hypocrite.

As much as you may hear “Public lands in public hands”, it would be counter productive to not also equally value “working lands in working hands”. As long as you’re not blocking previously accessible public land or putting “private road NO public access” 50 yards from the legal access, I think we all wish you the best in your transition.

 

[antlerradar]

For the record, regarding Buck deer I do not support shooting spike deer. give them another year. Minimum 2x1. a fork on one side. Maximum legal 3x3, with a special draw/app tag for any buck over 3x3

Why, there is not much difference between a spike and a forky. Most spikes are likely a result of poor nutrition or a tough start in life, but it could also be the buck is not as effective at utilizing the available food as the forkys class mates.
I could go for the APR you are suggesting, but that would be a tough pill for many to swallow.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Why, there is not much difference between a spike and a forky. Most spikes are likely a result of poor nutrition or a tough start in life, but it could also be the buck is not as effective at utilizing the available food as the forkys class mates.
I could go for the APR you are suggesting, but that would be a tough pill for many to swallow.

You could pretty much guarantee that any policy that is good for wildlife and wild lands is going to be a hard pill to swallow for most current hunters. We are just at that point now and I do not have one bit of sympathy for those who object to doing what is upright.

I am 77 and grew up when and where next to no game animals were left. My hunting mentors, mostly WW2 vets, vigorously and unselfishly supported programs that asked them to make sacrifices in their lives, for wildlife/hunting benefits they would never see, but we hunters are enjoying today.

When I hear todays, hunters pissing and moaning always wanting more and more hunting opportunities and being unwilling to make sacrifices for the future, all I can say is they are "FUBAR" to use a WW2 vintage term.

 

[TX Trophy Hunter]

I don’t see the need to hate on any hunter that follows the laws and respects the wildlife.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I don’t see the need to hate on any hunter that follows the laws and respects the wildlife.

Has nothing to do with hate, not at all. It is just that in so many ways the fish and game laws as drawn up do not themselves really respect wildlife or wild lands. They are based on old ideas and habits which have come down from ancient herding societies in which wild animals were being managed like goats, cattle and sheep. And the land was manipulated like huge soon to be overgrazed feed lots without fences.

The end result is that the hunting experience is rigged and becomes like some non-electric full sized video game where one wins rather valueless points based on how much calcium a game animal carries on its head.

It can be so much more when hunters invest in ideas that enrich the entire ecosystems and not see wild lands as antler factories.

 

[TX Trophy Hunter]

Has nothing to do with hate, not at all. It is just that in so many ways the fish and game laws as drawn up do not themselves really respect wildlife or wild lands. They are based on old ideas and habits which have come down from ancient herding societies in which wild animals were being managed like goats, cattle and sheep. And the land was manipulated like huge soon to be overgrazed feed lots without fences.

The end result is that the hunting experience is rigged and becomes like some non-electric full sized video game where one wins rather valueless points based on how much calcium a game animal carries on its head.

It can be so much more when hunters invest in ideas that enrich the entire ecosystems and not see wild lands as antler factories.

I was referring to this line from the original post:

“Hate on the guy who takes the same class of deer EVERY SINGLE YEAR because he cant stand to not kill something. ”

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I was referring to this line from the original post:

“Hate on the guy who takes the same class of deer EVERY SINGLE YEAR because he cant stand to not kill something. ”

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it came from something I said.

Where do live in Texas ? i always thought highly of West Texas