Montana Elk Management Plan Citizens Advisory Committee

[Big Fin]

But just as importantly, there needs to be an increase in activism from hunters individually, or through their favored organization on this. MWF, RMEF, BHA, local Rod & Gun Clubs, whomever - be involved and become a leader. Leaders are the ones who show up and do the heavy lifting while others show up for just the rallies & selfie-ops.

This^^^^^

Last time this process was undertaken, the number of hunters who showed up for meetings could fit in my living room and still maintain C-19 social distancing protocols.

Those good folks who spend the time to do this and stick their necks out for the critics to hack on, need the support of hunters when this process gets to public meetings, FWP Commission meetings, and the unfortunate likelihood that the legislature wants to mess with it. This forum is open for use by anyone for posting information about this process and where people can make a difference.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

This^^^^^

Last time this process was undertaken, the number of hunters who showed up for meetings could fit in my living room and still maintain C-19 social distancing protocols.

Those good folks who spend the time to do this and stick their necks out for the critics to hack on, need the support of hunters when this process gets to public meetings, FWP Commission meetings, and the unfortunate likelihood that the legislature wants to mess with it. This forum is open for use by anyone for posting information about this process and where people can make a difference.

Unfortunately, quite the opposite happened when resident fee hikes were on the table.

 

[SAJ-99]

Unfortunately, quite the opposite happened when resident fee hikes were on the table.

the majority in that situation probably don't care if the fee was hiked, but they were not going to spend their time in pushing for the hike. Those that showed up felt their time was worth it. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is the state of the democracy today.

 

[HighWildFree]

It will take a massive effort from sportsmen to ensure that this plan remains in the domain of the public trust. It's not going to be enough to have people on this committee to advocate for elk & good management. We're going to need to step up as citizens and keep our engagement strong.

What would that look like? I often hear folks say to get involved, but what does effective support/lobbying/advocacy look like in this instance?

 

[Big Fin]

What would that look like? I often hear folks say to get involved, but what does effective support/lobbying/advocacy look like in this instance?

Attend public meetings when the plan is being put out for discussion. Write comments to the FWP Commission. If the legislature tries to rope this Plan into the legislative process, contact your legislators. Attend any legislative meetings where the Plan might be discussed. Inform others of the importance of this plan. Encourage your friends to do the same.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Out of curiosity, how many people usually apply for a position like this? Is there anything that makes one candidate stand out from the rest?

 

[SAJ-99]

Out of curiosity, how many people usually apply for a position like this? Is there anything that makes one candidate stand out from the rest?

the ability to take a beating?

For fun, here is a scenario
FWP: Let’s start our discussion with the target. We show 3700 elk in the zone and the target is 2000.
Landowner 1: that number is too high it should be 1000
Hunter 1: The number is too low, it should be 4000
Hunter 3: You are killing too many elk, that’s why you don’t see them. It’s is all FWP fault.
LO1: You want to see them? Come to my place in December. They are all over the haystacks.
Hunter 1: can I shoot them?
LO1: Of course not. I don’t allow hunting.
Hunter 3: why not?
LO1: because hunters don’t respect rules and destroy the property and spread non-native grasses. Had to spend $2000 last year spraying cheat grass.
Hunter 2: 3000 seems about right but I want more access to private land, that’s where they’re hiding.
LO2: The outfitters that lease my place are doing fine, but I want shoulder seasons to drive the elk off my place as soon as the people who pay non-reportable-to-the-IRS cash money are done shooting elk.
Hunter 1&2: LO2 can we hunt your place?
LO2: hell no!
LO3: you can hunt mine.
Hunter 3: LO3 I hunted your place on Block Mgmt last year. Didn’t see a thing. Because we are killing too many elk
LO3: that is because all the hunting pressure drives the elk to LO1 and LO2 properties. The elk come back after the season ends. There are too many elk.
Hunter 3: LO 1&2 can I hunt your place?
LO1&2: Hell No!.
Hunter 1,2,3: It’s all FWP fault!

Rinse and Repeat.

 

[BuzzH]

If I were on that committee I'd be making a big push to explore season structures, managing on bull to cow ratio's, revisiting quota's, revisiting elk objective numbers, managing elk with the distinction of whether they spend a majority of their time on private or public...to get started.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

There is some humorous truth to @SAJ-99 post. The ridiculous reality is trying to accomplish a one size fits all by shooting elk for 11 weeks straight as @BuzzH pointed out. It makes no sense and completely takes science out of the equation.

 

[elkduds]

You can't make much difference if you aren't @ the table. From experience w the Colorado Parks & Wildlife Sportspersons' Round Table, here are some observations about how appointees can impact state policy. There is an expectation to follow the state agency's desired paths. and opposition to that can limit one's influence. The greatest influence such advisors can have is through networking, finding other members and constituents who you support, and supporting others who agree w your view. Those are the 2 kinds of influence in these panels. For people who have energy and passion to serve; who value forging connections and cooperating w allies; and without a strong expectation of winning @ all costs; it is an opportunity to have a hand in steering the ship of wildlife policy. These are appointed positions, not elected, which tends to limit their authority. They offer an opportunity to meet influencers and average sportsmen/women, and to represent their views. Experience w wildlife policy is important, more important is experience w people.

I have read insightful, pro-wildlife voices of MT experience often here. I hope some of those voices will step forward to represent conservation and elk, in future discussions w landowners. They own some of the land, the wildlife belongs to all Montanans.

 

[timmy]

At the end of the day Montanans or hunters would have to give up opportunity to completely fix the problem. Good luck selling that.

 

[BuzzH]

At the end of the day Montanans or hunters would have to give up opportunity to completely fix the problem. Good luck selling that.

Opportunity is the biggest lie sold to Montana hunters. They don't understand, that if you actually manage elk, you don't need to take your rifle for a hike 10/11 weeks to kill an elk. You don't need to play border patrol waiting for a bull to step onto public. You don't need to foot race someone up the hill to kill a bull.

Our general seasons for bull elk in Wyoming are 9-14 days for the most part. Its a very, very, very rare day when I don't see legal bulls, its a rare day when I couldn't kill a legal bull, as in safety off, all I have to do is press the trigger.

Wyoming cow hunts are "opportunity", plenty of longer seasons for those. The difference is short general seasons on bulls. The LQ areas also offer later bull hunting times, some earlier and some very long seasons...but you're limiting total bull hunters.

If Montana hunters would make the tough sacrifice of shortening archery to the month of September and a bull season from Oct. 15-31...it would change things dramatically for the better. The first few years would suck, but it would improve after that.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Attend public meetings when the plan is being put out for discussion. Write comments to the FWP Commission. If the legislature tries to rope this Plan into the legislative process, contact your legislators. Attend any legislative meetings where the Plan might be discussed. Inform others of the importance of this plan. Encourage your friends to do the same.

Write letters to the editor, volunteer to table when we can do that again, join a board of an organization, host a zoom cocktail fundraiser for that specific issue, work to recruit 10 friends to write comments.

And always, call your legislators.

 

[timmy]

Opportunity is the biggest lie sold to Montana hunters. They don't understand, that if you actually manage elk, you don't need to take your rifle for a hike 10/11 weeks to kill an elk. You don't need to play border patrol waiting for a bull to step onto public. You don't need to foot race someone up the hill to kill a bull.

Our general seasons for bull elk in Wyoming are 9-14 days for the most part. Its a very, very, very rare day when I don't see legal bulls, its a rare day when I couldn't kill a legal bull, as in safety off, all I have to do is press the trigger.

Wyoming cow hunts are "opportunity", plenty of longer seasons for those. The difference is short general seasons on bulls. The LQ areas also offer later bull hunting times, some earlier and some very long seasons...but you're limiting total bull hunters.

If Montana hunters would make the tough sacrifice of shortening archery to the month of September and a bull season from Oct. 15-31...it would change things dramatically for the better. The first few years would suck, but it would improve after that.

I know I’ve hunted Wyoming and other states, it’s not rocket science. But good luck selling that to the general hunting public of Montana.

 

[antlerradar]

I have sat on a few of the advisory committees. Elk management is a very complicated and controversial subject. I think that FWP is being overly optimistic if they think that a sold plan can be hashed out in a couple of two day meetings. The stuff Buzz talks about is what is needed and his ideas have almost no chance with so little time.

 

[antlerradar]

After thinking about what is possible on my morning hike. I have concluded that a realistic goal for sportsman would be a plan that does not try to meet population objectives on the backs of public land elk.
Not saying that FWP is intentionally trying to meet objectives by killing public land elk, Just that this is the what has happened under the current management strategies and is what needs to change.

 

[SAJ-99]

Start by analyzing the population objectives (which I believe is where this committee is starting). I have a suspicion that most of those numbers have very little science behind them. Someone can correct me if this is wrong.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I have sat on a few of the advisory committees. Elk management is a very complicated and controversial subject. I think that FWP is being overly optimistic if they think that a sold plan can be hashed out in a couple of two day meetings. The stuff Buzz talks about is what is needed and his ideas have almost no chance with so little time.

The way that I read the panel, it's about helping set some baselines, rather than coming up with a complex, multi-tiered strategy. This is the gut-check that FWP needs, not the detailed plan. I'd like to see more empowerment of these folks, but this is a solid start to getting this done under an administration that's going to give everyone a fair shake.

 

[BWALKER77]

Unfortunately, quite the opposite happened when resident fee hikes were on the table.

Never under estimate the number of cheap bastards out there!

 

[BWALKER77]

Opportunity is the biggest lie sold to Montana hunters. They don't understand, that if you actually manage elk, you don't need to take your rifle for a hike 10/11 weeks to kill an elk. You don't need to play border patrol waiting for a bull to step onto public. You don't need to foot race someone up the hill to kill a bull.

Our general seasons for bull elk in Wyoming are 9-14 days for the most part. Its a very, very, very rare day when I don't see legal bulls, its a rare day when I couldn't kill a legal bull, as in safety off, all I have to do is press the trigger.

Wyoming cow hunts are "opportunity", plenty of longer seasons for those. The difference is short general seasons on bulls. The LQ areas also offer later bull hunting times, some earlier and some very long seasons...but you're limiting total bull hunters.

If Montana hunters would make the tough sacrifice of shortening archery to the month of September and a bull season from Oct. 15-31...it would change things dramatically for the better. The first few years would suck, but it would improve after that.

That sounds like a common sense proposal to me.