Llama Hunting - Prices 2021- Ouch

[AvidIndoorsman]

So your outfitter was free?
Wilderness Ridge is currently at $100/day/llama
View attachment 156261

I thought he was $150, my apologies.

 

[Big Fin]

Admittedly I am biased towards Beau's llamas, having used them on over a dozen trips. In addition to all the things he provides as part of his daily fee, you are getting some of the best trained mountain pack llamas in North America. These llamas already have 500+ miles on this over the course of the summer, working in the primary part of Beau's business, which are his backcountry summer tourist trips. In addition to being fit and lean, these llamas are also socially adjusted very well, having many different people leading them across the mountains over the course of a summer.

When I first rented from Beau, it was $50 per day. I couldn't believe what I got for that price. I convinced him to increase his prices to $70, then $80, and now $100. Even at that price, he has a peak-season waiting list longer than he can fill. The quality of his operation and the benefit these llamas provide to over-the-hill hunters like me is worth way more than what he charges. I understand what I perceive them to be worth today, compared to when I was in my 30s would have been vastly different.

Given the huge demand they have in hunting season, I am trying to convince them to start a "Time Share" type of arrangement so his recurring customers can buy a week, or however many days, of llama capacity. They buy it in advance, almost like buying a spot on the list for foreseeable seasons, allowing him to better plan his season and better meet the needs of his recurring customers. That will probably take more llamas off the "open for use" market, possibly driving up prices even more.

Beau's work ethic and concern for his customers is reflected in the quality of llamas he provides. His llamas are the Top Guns (he has one named that) of the non-equine mountain hunting pack animal solutions. Value is the intersection of price and quality. The quality of his animals and how prepped he has everything when you show up, the "quality" part of that equation is high.

I tell him that he should be charging what the market will demand for that quality. He's not even close to that. He and I talk a few times each week about the business side of his operation. It is his nature to be price-sensitive, as most small business owners inherently are. My role as his friend and quasi-advisor is to make sure he is getting the market value from the years of work he has invested in building this herd of llamas.

His summer tourist trips are the large majority of his business, compared to renting llamas to hunters. With COVID costing him the vast majority of those trips, I am trying to help him develop policies where he doesn't take the entire hit for cancelled reservations. I am also trying to convince him to increase those trip prices. When you are booked two years in advance (in non-COVID years) for your summer trips, you are surely way under the market rate. No matter what he charges for hunting rentals, it will never make up the huge operating costs and overhead that comes with the summer tourist business.

I wish that cost was not an issue with many things in life, including hunting costs and llama rentals. Yet, Beau is in a business with huge risks and high fixed costs. He deserves to make a good living while he does all this work and takes on all of these risks.

 

[Irrelevant]

Admittedly I am biased towards Beau's llamas, having used them on over a dozen trips. In addition to all the things he provides as part of his daily fee, you are getting some of the best trained mountain pack llamas in North America. These llamas already have 500+ miles on this over the course of the summer, working in the primary part of Beau's business, which are his backcountry summer tourist trips. In addition to be fit and lean, these llamas are also socially adjusted very well, having many different people leading them across the mountains over the course of a summer.

When I first rented from Beau, it was $50 per day. I couldn't believe what I got for that price. I convinced him to increase his prices to $70, then $80, and now $100. Even at that price, he has a peak-season waiting list longer than he can fill. The quality of his operation and the benefit these llamas provide to over-the-hill hunters like me is worth way more than what he charges. I understand what I perceive them to be worth today, compared to when I was in my 30s would have been vastly different.

Given the huge demand they have in hunting season, I am trying to convince them to start a "Time Share" type of arrangement so his recurring customers can buy a week, or however many days, of llama capacity. They buy it in advance, almost like buying a spot on the list for foreseeable seasons, allowing him to better plan his season and better meet the needs of his recurring customers. That will probably take more llamas off the "open for use" market, possibly driving up prices even more.

Beau's work ethic and concern for his customers is reflected in the quality of llamas he provides. His llamas are the Top Guns (he has one named that) of the non-equine mountain hunting pack animal solutions. Value is the intersection of price and quality. The quality of his animals and how prepped he has everything when you show up, the "quality" part of that equation is high.

I tell him that he should be charging what the market will demand for that quality. He's not even close to that. He and I talk a few times each week about the business side of his operation. It is his nature to be price-sensitive, as most small business owners inherently are. My role as his friend and quasi-advisor is to make sure he is getting the market value from the years of work he has invested in building this herd of llamas.

His summer tourist trips are the large majority of his business, compared to renting llamas to hunters. With COVID costing him the vast majority of those trips, I am trying to help him develop policies where he doesn't take the entire hit for cancelled reservations. I am also trying to convince him to increase those trip prices. When you are booked two years in advance (in non-COVID years) for your summer trips, you are surely way under the market rate. No matter what he charges for hunting rentals, it will never make up the huge operating costs and overhead that comes with the summer tourist business.

I wish that cost was not an issue with many things in life, including hunting costs and llama rentals. Yet, Beau is in a business with huge risks and high fixed costs. He deserves to make a good living while he does all this work and takes on all of these risks.

Looking back on your 30s, would have have still looked in them or still just packed on your back? And does you current financial situation vs the one in your 30s factor in? How do you view renting vs owning considering you're using llamas more and more?

 

[rwc101]

What costs more per pound carried: a llama or a cameraman?

 

[Big Fin]

Looking back on your 30s, would have have still looked in them or still just packed on your back? And does you current financial situation vs the one in your 30s factor in? How do you view renting vs owning considering you're using llamas more and more?

Yes, my changed financial position (that normally comes with age) surely factors in. When in my 30's, I had plenty of brawn and not much financial capacity. While in my 30s, I would not have spent what I do today on llamas, and other costs of comfort. Just the position I was in at that time and I accepted the fact I couldn't afford horses or other manners of comfort. I have saved and sacrificed for decades to be in the position where I can now indulge in a few more comforts.

I am going to use llamas in the future, so it comes down to rent or own. Given how much we use them for our show, owning is better. I own one and have committed to Beau that I will be buying Quigley next summer. The goal is to get a herd of four. Beau wants to keep them for his summer pack trips, so that alleviates part of the costs and obligations I might otherwise have and would possibly tilt me more toward renting. Maybe I can convince Mrs. Fin to allow for six of them, but for now, four is the marital imposed limit.

Based on my experience with llamas over the last four years, I've come to this conclusion - if I needed llamas/stock for 1-2 weeks a season and I was in the later miles of my hunting path, I would be saving/allocating budget for a solution that would extend my backcountry hunting career.

I do 65-80 days a year, most of which are in a tent in the mountains. Being able to carry a few extra comforts and not exhausting myself by hiking heavy loads to camp, allows me to hunt more days and hunt harder for those days. Just a reality of where I'm at. I need more sleep, so a more comfortable sleeping pad and a 2-man tent make a huge difference. Taking an occasional morning off to let my liver catch up makes a difference, requiring me to extend my hunt by a day or two, which in turn requires packing in an extra day of food and supplies. Without llamas, or some other pack animal, I would be relegated to fewer backcountry days/hunts, so given my desire to experience as many of those trips as possible, I'm willing to allocate some of my retirement funds or my son's possible inheritance for the comforts these llamas provide.

 

[Sytes]

I had horses throughout my youth and younger adult life. My time was much more patterned for managing the upkeep, etc.
I gave this a "return to memory lane" go a few years back. Three horses, corrals, round pen, arena, pack gear, with a fourth horse bordering purchase, etc. The only part I severely lacked? Time. Time is the essence to quality use.

Manual sledhead for now... though after my recent wilderness escapade, my wife seems inclined to dismiss the reasonable near term life insurance payment for budgeted drop camps...

I have a strong distaste for making multiple pack trips for a single elk. I'd rather suffer once than suffer a bit less multiple times.

Llamas. Hmmm. Rental? Not sure. I'd not want the liability of high lining or picket/hobbling rented animals vacant camp while my partner and I are out and about hunting.

 

[Irrelevant]

Thanks for the insight @Big Fin I always appreciate your take.

While packing out my buddy's elk this year in ID, hunched over with 110 lbs on my 148 lb back. I got to thinking that if I keep this up I'll be crippled. There has to be a better way. And with my career and lifestyle I'm edging slightly closer to financial flexibility probably sooner than most (at least by my standards). Llamas are at the top of my list. I had horses as a kid, very little desire to go there again. I still think burro's might be my ticket. But I know my Metcalf needs four of it's own legs if it's going to provide any real help.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

goats
Matt

 

[devon deer]

I am going to use llamas in the future, so it comes down to rent or own. Given how much we use them for our show, owning is better. I own one and have committed to Beau that I will be buying Quigley next summer. The goal is to get a herd of four. Beau wants to keep them for his summer pack trips, so that alleviates part of the costs and obligations I might otherwise have and would possibly tilt me more toward renting. Maybe I can convince Mrs. Fin to allow for six of them, but for now, four is the marital imposed limit.

Very interesting, so what is the Hunttalk discount code to rent off Mr Newberg, or should we just contact Mrs Newberg directly?
Cheers
Richard

 

[Duck-Slayer]

And you can't blame him in these times, my fly fishing guiding bookings have been a disaster this year because of the Covid thing, so many cancellations and no financial help from the government, like many others it hit me hard in my pocket this year.
But it was pointed out to me by a friend that all my competitors were charging a lot more for their services, so I upped my prices by 20% in August to bring me inline, and I have to say the customers old and new have still placed bookings even though I made that decision....but I'm still broke

I can't see me ever getting back across the pond, but even if I did I couldn't afford Llamas, in my 60's I would just have to hunt within my limitations, which aren't too bad for an old fart!

Cheers

Richard

You can hunt with me and the goats for free
Matt

 

[Cornell2012]

I'm willing to allocate some of my retirement funds or my son's possible inheritance for the comforts these llamas provide.

You'll have to "allocate" a lot more of it to medical bills if you damage your back trying to backpack out half an elk in one trip. I'm willing to bet the llamas are closer to cost-neutral that you might think.

 

[Kiwi]

Interesting thread. I definitely hope to do a llama trip some time soon. My DIY trips are pretty expensive ($5k each for everything including taxidermy) but am happy to add 5 days llama hire to my budget. Can’t wait.

 

[LuketheDog]

You'll have to "allocate" a lot more of it to medical bills if you damage your back trying to backpack out half an elk in one trip. I'm willing to bet the llamas are closer to cost-neutral that you might think.

I've said reasonable things like this to my dad many times, he rarely listens...

 

[2rocky]

Growing up with horses I'm really tied into them as a pack animal. But the Infrastructure for owning just one is huge, not to mention variable costs. I won't go into details. But I'm kicking around the idea of talking to a couple of the Trail Ride outfits here on the coast about renting a couple more reliable dude horses to fill in the gaps when I do go out of state. I'd probably get them for a month or two in the fall just to get their individual idiosyncrasies figured out before I was deep in the tall and uncut....

 

[Pagosa]

We have one mare and burro that are really broke, and two foals we are training, and you couldn’t pay me enough to rent out one of them. With the amount of time involved training one, similar to a llama, I guess, it would be too much risk involved letting someone rent a animal from me. I’m surprised the replacement cost is not more. I personally think going through a outfitter to do a drop camp would be way easier than dealing with rental pack animals. It would be similar to renting out a good hunting hound for someone to lose, get injured/killed or to get screwed up.

 

[406dn]

Without horses,, I'd have bagged my elk hunting career before now.

Pointing dogs got me going to a few field trials. That got me exposed to horses. The rest is history.

Presently I have three TWH's, one semiretired. His primary duty now is being a reliable horse for a young girl learning to ride. She is pretty horse crazy and I'm pleased to help her. He is still sound but is well into his 20's age wise.

The other two are been there done that with about everything a horse could experience. I cheerfully let good friends ride,,, but there is no way I'd ever loan or rent one of them out.

 

[dgc1963]

Reading this post and some comments has me kinda thinking of some friends back here at home they always want to go out west and its always a $ issue ,I dont get out every yr but every 2 or 3
We all have X amount of $ to spend and seeing what some spend it on is kinda funny {to me ) 8.00 a day for smokes lots of booze ,eating out all the time 200 to 300 for cable, 1000 for a cell phone and several in the house, 800.00 for a car payment . Their are so many swipes of a debit card for 10 $ that adds up to a lot in a month
Im not saying anyone is right or wrong but I run a home budget a bit different an 700 for llamas doesnt seem all that much. to aid in my back country hunts esp at 57 yrs old
Saving 35 $ a week isnt much but in 2 yrs their is a Non res elk hunt gas, gear ,tags and the next yr you have the gear

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Reading this post and some comments has me kinda thinking of some friends back here at home they always want to go out west and its always a $ issue ,I dont get out every yr but every 2 or 3
We all have X amount of $ to spend and seeing what some spend it on is kinda funny {to me ) 8.00 a day for smokes lots of booze ,eating out all the time 200 to 300 for cable, 1000 for a cell phone and several in the house, 800.00 for a car payment . Their are so many swipes of a debit card for 10 $ that adds up to a lot in a month
Im not saying anyone is right or wrong but I run a home budget a bit different an 700 for llamas doesnt seem all that much. to aid in my back country hunts esp at 57 yrs old
Saving 35 $ a week isnt much but in 2 yrs their is a Non res elk hunt gas, gear ,tags and the next yr you have the gear

$700

1 llama can carry 140 absolute max
A bull elk bones out + clean skull is ~230-250
2 llamas can pack out a bull.
A one week hunt from the outfitter in question is $2520.

Randy used 4 llamas this year on his hunt. With Beau the less expensive outfitter it would have been $475 a day.

 

[dgc1963]

$700

1 llama can carry 140 absolute max
A bull elk bones out + clean skull is ~230-250
2 llamas can pack out a bull.
A one week hunt from the outfitter in question is $2520.

Randy used 4 llamas this year on his hunt. With Beau the less expensive outfitter it would have been $475 a day.

I was thinking what it would be for me to take 1 llama in with me since I hunt by myself most of the time,still having my pack on my back and having the llama help with the load going in and out but still taking some of the load myself
Didnt do the math for several and more gear still thought it would be several trips out but less and easier than solo and it would give me someone to talk to other than myself lol

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I was thinking what it would be for me to take 1 llama in with me since I hunt by myself most of the time,still having my pack on my back and having the llama help with the load going in and out but still taking some of the load myself
Didnt do the math for several and more gear still thought it would be several trips out but less and easier than solo and it would give me someone to talk to other than myself lol

There is a minimum number of llamas and days for most companies. I’ve never seen less than 2.

The llamas I’ve used do not like being alone, perhaps if you own one you can condition them to go solo, but they tweak out if you separate them. If the even get out of sight of the other llama they get worked up, won’t walk, sit down, and/or get noticeable anxious.

Honestly, I’m getting a little tired of some of the folks on HT that don’t know what the heck they’re talking about and simply seem to be here to shoot everyone down.

From social media/ads/vids people get the rosy side of things but never a straight up pro and con. People seem to like the backpack thread I started because it doesn’t attempt to blow sunshine up your ass and just lays it out.

That’s all I’m trying to do, llamas are great I used them for 2 seasons, will likely again down the road, but renting them like everything else in hunting is increasing in price dramatically.