Interesting......

[shrapnel]

Same question, basically. "Should we regulate by [aspect of cartridge]?"

I question the need to regulate anything given the assumption that all the information we have been given is completely accurate. I would think that other scavengers, such as coyotes, and bobcats would be dying as well from lead ingestion as I am certain they are consuming much more carrion than raptors are.

No doubt there is some environmental reason that only raptors are threatened by this phenomenon and we need to control it with ammunition and hunting modification. Having carried a lead fragment in my arm from a ricochet, for many years and still never having any indication of any detectable amount of lead in my system, I still question how all this lead is killing all these birds...

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

Same question, basically. "Should we regulate by [aspect of cartridge]?"

To me this the entire point of the conversation. The Oregon Nonlead Hunting Partnership is working hard to convince as many people as possible that we should switch to nontoxic so we can avoid any sort of regulations being imposed. The writing is on the wall for lead, and we'd do well to get ahead of it. If we can make enough change within the hunting community, and publicize it, we may be able to avoid the imposition of a ban.

I don't look down on people that shoot lead. I still shoot some of it. But I do preach the benefits of nonlead and attempt to change over as much as I can.

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

I question the need to regulate anything given the assumption that all the information we have been given is completely accurate. I would think that other scavengers, such as coyotes, and bobcats would be dying as well from lead ingestion as I am certain they are consuming much more carrion than raptors are.

No doubt there is some environmental reason that only raptors are threatened by this phenomenon and we need to control it with ammunition and hunting modification. Having carried a lead fragment in my arm from a ricochet, for many years and still never having any indication of any detectable amount of lead in my system, I still question how all this lead is killing all these birds...

I believe the physiology of birds makes them more susceptible to lead consumption. It certainly can affect mammals, but I haven't seen it as as much of a problem.

 

[refuseresist]

To me this the entire point of the conversation. The Oregon Nonlead Hunting Partnership is working hard to convince as many people as possible that we should switch to nontoxic so we can avoid any sort of regulations being imposed. The writing is on the wall for lead, and we'd do well to get ahead of it. If we can make enough change within the hunting community, and publicize it, we may be able to avoid the imposition of a ban.

I don't look down on people that shoot lead. I still shoot some of it. But I do preach the benefits of nonlead and attempt to change over as much as I can.

Agreed.

My point is, the precedent of regulation exists.

I'm on my phone, else I'd look but does any state allow birdshot? Is anyone arguing that it should be allowed?

 

[Lyfter1013]

Last I check I wasn't getting ham sandwiches for my kids from the tail pipe.


Seems that the righting is on the wall for lead projectiles used for hunting and the impact they have in the ecosystem.
We have two options. We do nothing, say nothing and wait for others to make decisions for us. Then complain about them.

Or we take the bull by the horns, police ourselves and come up with viable alternatives that are better for us, the animals and the environment.

I gotta disagree about the writing being on the wall, yes there are some Studies that show increased lead in raptors I get that but to say that this is a wide spread problem is a bit of a stretch. I’m
Obviously not saying lead is good for the eco system but let’s be honest here a few lead fragments left behind in a gut pile are not doing near the damage of so many other negative effects humans in general have on the ecosystem. Take a look at the link I post about Golden Eagles scroll down to the section of threats of survival. Notice they have a blurb underneath the list of top % of deaths that says “many eagles effected by lead poisoning” they can’t even put a number or percentage of death the way they can the other causes. Don’t you think if that was a wide spread problem it would be listed as one of the top % of deaths? If this was a wide spread issue I might be able to get behind it but unfortunately there isn’t enough data for me to get behind this

LibGuides: Golden Eagle (Aquila chrysaetos) Fact Sheet: Population & Conservation Status

Golden Eagle (Aquila chrysaetos) Population and conservation status, threats to survival, management actions

ielc.libguides.com

 

[BWALKER77]

I question the need to regulate anything given the assumption that all the information we have been given is completely accurate. I would think that other scavengers, such as coyotes, and bobcats would be dying as well from lead ingestion as I am certain they are consuming much more carrion than raptors are.

No doubt there is some environmental reason that only raptors are threatened by this phenomenon and we need to control it with ammunition and hunting modification. Having carried a lead fragment in my arm from a ricochet, for many years and still never having any indication of any detectable amount of lead in my system, I still question how all this lead is killing all these birds...

A few scavengers biting the dust isnt the basis for alarm and is certainly not some sort of ecological disaster. Many are hit by cars every year while dining on road kill.
With that said I chose not to risk feeding my kids lead.
There is also no doubt in my mind that tree huggers will and are using this issue to their advantage.

 

[shrapnel]

To me this the entire point of the conversation. The Oregon Nonlead Hunting Partnership is working hard to convince as many people as possible that we should switch to nontoxic so we can avoid any sort of regulations being imposed. The writing is on the wall for lead, and we'd do well to get ahead of it. If we can make enough change within the hunting community, and publicize it, we may be able to avoid the imposition of a ban.

I don't look down on people that shoot lead. I still shoot some of it. But I do preach the benefits of nonlead and attempt to change over as much as I can.

I allow you your position on the subject, however, I remain skeptical and don’t feel the need for lead free bullets is necessary. Animals have been killed for hundreds of years with lead bullets, and now we are concerned for the health of raptors that are being killed by lead ingestion. What happened to all the raptors that died from lead ingestion for those hundreds of years that ate all the critters that were killed with 100% lead bullets when hunting was not a sport but a part of survival?

I anticipate plenty of reasons due to lack of understanding any connection to the problem due to no scientific knowledge of such occurrences in those days, but still it has only become an issue most recently.

 

[TwistedSage]

I believe the physiology of birds makes them more susceptible to lead consumption. It certainly can affect mammals, but I haven't seen it as as much of a problem.

Gonna take a wild guess and say the birds being more susceptible is due to then using their gizzards to pulverize any lead fragments enhancing surface area of the lead leaching into the blood.

To each their own. I have made the switch to non lead for my 308 and game loads for my shotgun. I still use lead to plink 22, 223, and shoot clays...

 

[antlerradar]

I allow you your position on the subject, however, I remain skeptical and don’t feel the need for lead free bullets is necessary. Animals have been killed for hundreds of years with lead bullets, and now we are concerned for the health of raptors that are being killed by lead ingestion. What happened to all the raptors that died from lead ingestion for those hundreds of years that ate all the critters that were killed with 100% lead bullets when hunting was not a sport but a part of survival?

I anticipate plenty of reasons due to lack of understanding any connection to the problem due to no scientific knowledge of such occurrences in those days, but still it has only become an issue most recently.

Fifty years ago most of the raptors dyeing of lead were getting it in a more direct way.

 

[refuseresist]

Or, people shoot what they want. You would be surprised what I load in my rifles. What I won't do is stare down my nose at other hunters that don't "conform". mtmuley

unless it's 6.5 cm

 

[Hunting Wife]

Gonna take a wild guess and say the birds being more susceptible is due to then using their gizzards to pulverize any lead fragments enhancing surface area of the lead leaching into the blood.

Not all birds have gizzards. Raptors do not. They do have strong stomach acids and exceptionally high metabolism to speed digestion. Gorging on meat leaves you heavy and slow, and vulnerable to other threats. Want to get that stuff broken down as quickly as possible.

As with everything these days, I think the lead issue is complicated. Why didn’t we see more poisoning historically? I imagine it probably comes down to habitat availability to some degree. As we continue to develop habitat into subdivisions and strip malls and energy farms, we reduce the resources available on the landscape and concentrate wildlife, and hunters in this case, on smaller and smaller areas. This just amplifies any risks/threats that are already present.

 

[marksjeep]

An interesting article which may also illustrate some of the "why" lead bullets have not always been problematic.

https://doi.org/10.3996/092015-JFWM-086

I think it's fair to say hunters have generally shifted from traditionally "slow" cartridges to high-velocity cartridges over time. Not so many folks hunting with .30-30 or .45-70 any more. High-velocity lead bullets fragment more, as discussed in the article, leaving smaller and more widely distributed lead particles in game. This makes it much more likely for resulting lead particles to be ingested by scavengers.

 

[hank4elk]

I switched to mainly non-lead many years ago. Occational 22 now and the AB's are mostly copper and stay together well. One bullet per year too. I don't bird hunt much but use steel for what I do,turkey.
Before the condor deals and such. Kesterson was an eye opener.
Don't know how I do not have higher heavy metal levels in my system than I do from jobs I have done.
I don't use poison anymore due to side kills either.
Don't ride horses much either...................

 

[SAJ-99]

Interesting conversation, and comical too. Lead shot was banned on waterfowl in the early 90’s. People complained about it endlessly on the internet in the late 90’s and early 00’s (probably still are today). The real reason most hunters don’t switch is cost. Lead is super cheap. But it is toxic and banned from most commercial uses, like paint and toys. Hunters are cheap. I can confirm because there are other metals just as good as lead, like silver, but too expensive to test out. I would like to see the Feds ban it like they did for waterfowl. The production of alternatives would increase and the price would come down.
until then, these arguments will amuse me. Carry on. But keep in mind you are only as smart as the person you are arguing with on the internet. And that person may have ate paint chips as a kid in the 70’s.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Why not? Then we can move on to maximum cartridge, projectile weight, scope magnification and rangefinder capability. The possibilities are endless. mtmuley

Most states disallow the 50 BMG already.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Interesting conversation, and comical too. Lead shot was banned on waterfowl in the early 90’s. People complained about it endlessly on the internet in the late 90’s and early 00’s (probably still are today). The real reason most hunters don’t switch is cost. Lead is super cheap. But it is toxic and banned from most commercial uses, like paint and toys. Hunters are cheap. I can confirm because there are other metals just as good as lead, like silver, but too expensive to test out. I would like to see the Feds ban it like they did for waterfowl. The production of alternatives would increase and the price would come down.
until then, these arguments will amuse me. Carry on. But keep in mind you are only as smart as the person you are arguing with on the internet. And that person may have ate paint chips as a kid in the 70’s.

Acceptable spending in the Modern Hunter's mind:
New rifle w/ scope: $2,500
Spotter (Let's go mid-range) $700
Bino's: $500
Fancy Camo: $1,500
ATV: $5,000
Camper: $10,000
3/4 Ton Truck (let's be generous & say used) $25,000
Affliction T-shirts & Jeans: $all your dignity
Premium bonded bullets: $35/box of 50

Unacceptable spending in the Modern Hunter's mind:
Copper bullets: $38/box of 50

 

[Trial153]

In todays reality Hunters can afford lead alternatives way more then they can afford the public perception of being laisez-faire in regards our impact on wildlife.

 

[shrapnel]

This topic is long past convincing, both sides have dug in and feel justified in their individual perception, I am no different. It does appear as the data is as founded and relevant as what Fauci has determined about Covid 19.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

No deal breakers but the downsides are:
1. Higher Cost
2. Copper hunting bullets in general have lesser external and terminal ballistics than lead bullets. They lose velocity faster, are impacted more by wind, and make narrower wound channels.

I assume lead based gasoline and paint was also more effective than the period alternative.

Asbestos as a fire retardant? Like there is a practical reason why all the schools and public buildings of a certain period were built with it correct?

BPA in water bottles

DDT...

Personally I’m with @mtmuley on this one. I’m going to use what I want to use YMMV.

 

[El Jason]

Fifty years ago most of the raptors dyeing of lead were getting it in a more direct way.

Or other poisons