Here's why elk ranches should be illegal in every state

[AZ402]

It seems like very little threat, it seems pretty darn natural, more natural than the mulie whitetail crosses I've observed in nature.

Don't Red Deer and Waptiti live in different Continents? Pretty sure Whitetail and Mule deer cross paths in the wild a lot more than elk and red deer. Not sure how the elk cross breeding would be more natural than the WT's and Muleys cross breeding.

 

[MarvB]

more natural than the mulie whitetail crosses I've observed in nature. Isn't evolution supposed to take care of that

Tom...evolution doesn't drive a diesel pickup pulling a stock trailer to get a head start on the mutation process!

 

[280]

As much as this hurts I have got to say that Buzz and NHY made excellent posts, Tom pay attention



Tom what part of a Red Deer in Idaho is natural ?

Better yet what part of a native mule deer and a native whitetail deer crossing is un natural?"

 

[Tom]

MarvB and 280, Check this out!

Red deer in historical time inhabited temperate forests as well as plains in Europe, Asia, and North America. They were numerous in western Siberia, Kazakhstan, and the Urals. Extinguished by humans, deer survived in separated areas in mountain forests where there were more chances to survive in bushy thickets and high herbs in river valleys. Today, red deer is rapidly being restored to its distribution area, to occupy new grounds, even in very harsh climates (as in Yakutia).

http://www.answers.com/topic/red-deer-1

The world’s best encyclodictionalmanacapedia on the internet, till we get a real wildlife biologist here.

Thanks Buzz, good info. So, we have a million wild Rocky Mountain elk and we have one cow, that is negative on the Colorado test and positive on the Canada test for some gene, that may or may not be related to anything you posted here. What kind of threat is that? It seems like a pretty darn small threat that is being taken care of legally somehow. The guy is having the same cow tested over and over again and now some unspecified gene, of some unspecified consequence, matches some unspecified gene of a red deer, the European elk. Don't you want more information than that too?

Why not reintroduce the red stag, better than reintroducing wolves, if you ask me? Just a comment.

 

[280]

Tom,,,,, I give up, you simply don`t get it!

 

[AZ402]

Tom are there native Red Deer in N. America today?

 

[Tom]

280, don't give up. AZ402, finding that reference made me ask about reintroduction efforts, since it says humans got rid of them. I guess lots of us humans still want them out, eh 280? I'll try a search on that.

 

[BuzzH]

Tom,

So, you discount the differences between red deer and Rocky Mountain Elk?

I guess 10,000+ years worth of evolution on different continents and genetic isolation is meaningless?

If theres really no difference (in your mind) between red deer and elk why did they evolve so differently? Why do they look different? Why is the timing of the rut so different? Why are red deer smaller? Why are Rocky Mountain elk bigger? Why the differences in color? Why does one "bugle" and one "roar"?

An even bigger question...WHY would you want the two species to hybridize and lose the purity of either red deer or elk? Theres no advantage to it...only disadvantages to each pure strain.

If for no other reason, I dont want to hunt or see anything but genetically pure elk in North America. Thats reason enough...never mind the biologically sound reasons that I've already stated.

I dont want some dipshit elk farmer like Rammel changing it...why should one person have the right to alter an entire continents wildlife because of his stupidity and greed?

Rammel can stuff it in his ass and I hope they shut down every game farm in Idaho and every other state. Except Texas...its already so far gone, I think the whole state should be high-fenced.

 

[280]

to late Tom,,,I have given up on you,,, you will never understand hunting,,,,,, as long as you are happy killing a charging, almost killed an account, 4-H project!

 

[noharleyyet]

"I think the whole state should be high-fenced." Buzz quote

It's happening as we speak Buzz. It'll be like Europe here in Texas soon with only the affluent being able to hunt. I just hope you western guys can hold off the developers & deep pockets who would and could buy off your/our own public paradise.

Fact... & please don't give me the Bush paradigm speech.

Tom...you live too close to the golden triangle.

 

[TheTone]

I think I'll just give a "WOW" to the fact that Tom can apparently not grasp this at all. Thanks to those of you using your time to try and educate him.

 

[BuzzH]

NHY,

Yet....Tom still thinks game farms and high-fences are a good idea in the West.

Unbelievable.

Dont blame me...blame Tom.

As to Bush...I blame him for shredding whats left of "our/your own private paradise".

 

[Washington Hunter]

Great post Buzz, especially this part:

Rammel can stuff it in his ass and I hope they shut down every game farm in Idaho and every other state. Except Texas...its already so far gone, I think the whole state should be high-fenced.

Couldn't agree more.


Tom, I don't need a wildlife biologist to explain any of this to me, I was just wondering how you are qualified to say that mixing red deer with our native Rocky Mtn. elk is not a big deal.

 

[Tom]

280, you make me laugh, killing an animal that almost killed an accountant doesn't have anything to do with whether or not someone can understand hunting. Its more a sign of your limitations in thinking, whan you say it that way. You guys are putting words in my mouth some, you're so blinded to the facts.

Buzz, I don't see why those differences would be more important than muley whitetail differences, do you? How can they be considered more of a threat, are people so afraid that Rocky mountain elk will just die off, that they want to kill any elk with any gene that matches any gene of a red stag?

This stuff reminds of the boogy man when I was a kid, big time imaginary scarey stuff here. I'm open to some better explanations, if anybody has them.

 

[BuzzH]

Tom,

In nature its really rare, and I mean extremely rare for whitetail and mule deer to cross. I hunt an area in Western Montana where they co-exist in high numbers. You know how many "crosses" I've seen in 27 consecutive years of hunting there?

ZERO.

Heres the only reason you need Tom...I dont want red deer and elk to cross in the United States. Neither do a lot of other people. I dont find it aesthetically pleasing to hear a mongrel cross-bred mutant "roar" in one note. I like the three tones of a pure elk bugle. I dont like the "crowning" on the antlers of red deer either. I also hate the bland color of red deer.

There, happy now?

Also, never mind that both mule deer and whitetail are still (currently) native to North America. Red deer are no longer Native to N. America.

Big difference...if you dont believe it try reading "Origin of the Species".

 

[noharleyyet]

Tom,

Theres all kinds of biological regions to maintain pure strains of any native wildlife. Survival of any type of native game depends on pure genetics.

Dont believe me?

If red deer and native elk hybridize there are consequences. You could lose the pure genetics of the native Rocky Mountain Elk. It matters because the elk in the United States evolved here, they're more suited to the environment here. The timing of the rut, etc. would likely be compromised if red deer are allowed to cross with native elk. In more Northern climates, theres a very narrow window when animals can be born...early enough to ensure survival of their first winter...and late enough to avoid the worse spring weather. Just changing the dynamics and timing of that through genetic variation from non-native species like red deer...could have disastrous results for native elk.

Thats one example of why its important...theres also things like vulnerability (or lack of vulnerability) to diseases that one species or the other may or may not have evoloved with.

There so many classic examples of bad things happening from introduction of non-natives, hybrids, etc. that I'm surprised you'd see no problem with it.

I know you're good at research, it wouldnt take much effort to find plenty of examples.

Keeping genetically pure strains of any native wildlife species is crucial to its long-term survival.

...c'mon Tom, it doesn't get any clearer or more common sensical than Buzz's first post. Now you're just being stubborn my friend.

 

[wyomingtim]

I would have to agree with Buzz on this one. I can't stand the game farms. I can't stand the high-fenced hunt crap. When game farm animals get loose (native or non-native), bad things can happen. Didn't they track the big CWD issue on one of the elk farms down around Ft Collins? I was still in Laramie back during that time, and I was just happy that gaem farms were not allowed in Wyoming. I think one of the really bad things about the stag/elk issue is its proximity to Yellowstone.

 

[AZ402]

Buzz, I don't see why those differences would be more important than muley whitetail differences, do you? How can they be considered more of a threat, are people so afraid that Rocky mountain elk will just die off, that they want to kill any elk with any gene that matches any gene of a red stag?

This stuff reminds of the boogy man when I was a kid, big time imaginary scarey stuff here. I'm open to some better explanations, if anybody has them.

My head just exploded.

Good stuff Buzz..............

 

[Washington Hunter]

I was just happy that game farms were not allowed in Wyoming.

I'm thinking I may just retire in Wyoming for that reason. I'm still about 20 years away from that though, so by that time maybe Idaho will be an option.

 

[Tom]

Buzz, I've seen a lot of muley whitetail crosses, at least they look that way to me out in west Texas. The Terrell and Val Verde county line area is about 60-40 and there are lots of examples of that out there with the mule deer moving east.

Noharley, yes, Buzz gave good examples of the differences. He also said they are not native here ANYMORE. Its his desire they are not reintroduced, and a lot of others. I'd rather reintroduce red deer than wolves, that's my desire. Red deer are great to eat, I think they do better here than the elk I've seen, so I'm asking about the issue. I'm not willing to jump to conclusions that red deer are bad, when I know they are not.

Hey 280, just think of the red deer as a necked down elk, like the 280 is a necked down 30-06. That might help you a little. haha

Another name for red stag is the King's deer, the kings of France and England used to hunt them to the exclusion of others. I think its awesome that anybody can hunt them, at least here in Texas and some other places too.

Check them out, a 450 + bow one and 523 + rifle one, the world record from Germany now, I think.