HB 243 - Mandatory In-Person Field Day for Hunters Ed

[Nick87]

Man, this would be fantastic.

I've always wondered about some of our jr high and high school curriculum at least here as I'm sure every state is different. 3 years of music is mandatory. That one has always baffled me. No learning home economics anymore hardly any shop classes etc. I always imagine someone looking for a job can you cook? No.Balance a check book ? No. Change oil? No. I cam play the shit out of this tuba though...oh well welcome aboard!!

 

[Nick87]

Sorry for the sidetrack derailment

 

[Elktrack]

I really don't think the problematic behavior we are seeing in the field is due to ignorance. It's usually total disrespect for common sense and others' property. You don't educate away being a douche. Stiffer penalties and publication of offenders would be much more effective. Some asshole who drives all over a BM property and is also an employee of mine can expect to be looking for a job if I read about him doing it in the paper.

Nevertheless, I'm entirely in favor of putting hunters ed back in the classroom and eliminating on line course.

Here in Idaho we had some highly publicized incidents involving trapping (2014 ish). Both incidents involved inexperienced trapper that was ignorant about trapping. Fish and Game was going to make some changes to the laws as a result of the publicity and pressure from anti trapping community.

There were a few of us that attended Commission meetings and proposed the need for IN PERSON trapper ed as an opportunity to educate new trappers and at least send them afield with an understanding of not only the laws but how their behavior impacted all trappers, the landowners, non trapper perceptions, etc.

You are right that you can’t teach the doucheiness out of someone. But they can no longer use ignorance as a defense either. Everything we can do to educate and inform people new to hunting only helps our cause. It shows the non hunting community that we are responsible and intent on being ethical. Self policing our ranks is good. It’s also easier to get stiffer penalties imposed when the offender has been officially educated.

 

[Scott85]

I guess it’s a good idea, but I feel it’s an obstacle to get new hunters in the field.

 

[Elktrack]

I guess it’s a good idea, but I feel it’s an obstacle to get new hunters in the field.

It does add another layer to it but it’s totally necessary. No different than drivers license and drivers Ed. People plan for that ahead of time.

There’s a lot of people new to hunting that don’t know anything about it other than what they’ve seen on the internet and tv. These wackadoodle influencers aren’t teaching new hunters anything good. The days of learning from Grandpa are all but gone. “We” have to set the standard for entry into our culture or no one will.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It does add another layer to it but it’s totally necessary. No different than drivers license and drivers Ed. People plan for that ahead of time.

There’s a lot of people new to hunting that don’t know anything about it other than what they’ve seen on the internet and tv. These wackadoodle influencers aren’t teaching new hunters anything good. The days of learning from Grandpa are all but gone. “We” have to set the standard for entry into our culture or no one will.

A lot of driver's ed courses these days are online.

You complete the online portion, pass the DMV test, get your permit, complete your hours with a parent and then take the driving test.

The problem here is that there is 100% reciprocity between states for Hunter's ED, which is a good thing, but lots of states have online classes. So if this law passes and the state doesn't work to meet the needs of it's residents folks are just going to have their kids take an online course in another state. Logon to facebook at check the hunting pages of any state that has mandatory in-person and about ever 5th post is, "where can my kid take the course online".

 

[Doublecluck]

I think in my life I’ve attended in person HS courses about 10 times. twice for myself (lost my card and not automated back then) sister, cousins, nephew, friends and 3 of my kids so far. My 13 y/o took the online course a couple years ago at her own pace because of the China flu. Undoubtably there is far more education and value in the in person.

I have advocated for Hunter/gun safety in schools for a long time, I am all for it but it seems like there is some political barrier when it comes to guns/hunting and children. The hunting community has really dropped the ball at this opportunity. Pro gun states where guns and hunting are ingrained in the culture is the place to make it happen.

There is no such thing as too much education when it comes to guns/hunting

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think in my life I’ve attended in person HS courses about 10 times. twice for myself (lost my card and not automated back then) sister, cousins, nephew, friends and 3 of my kids so far. My 13 y/o took the online course a couple years ago at her own pace because of the China flu. Undoubtably there is far more education and value in the in person.

I have advocated for Hunter/gun safety in schools for a long time, I am all for it but it seems like there is some political barrier when it comes to guns/hunting and children. The hunting community has really dropped the ball at this opportunity. Pro gun states where guns and hunting are ingrained in the culture is the place to make it happen.

There is no such thing as too much education when it comes to guns/hunting

Colorado passed a law in 2022 to make hunter ed available in the 7th grade. This session they're looking to ban guns.

I think there is still a lot of support for hunting, and it's our job as a community to make sure it stays that way.

I don't think spending 1-2 days showing someone you fundamentally understand the weapon you are carrying and the safety necessary to employ that weapon effectively are a bad idea. It also isn't a bad idea to make sure folks can see how to shut a gate correctly, not take a dump next to a road, and in general, how to ask a landowner for permission or interact with them in the field.

Hunter Ed is a great tool to teach new hunters, but it's an even better tool to keep hunting in a positive light and ensure that even in blue states, it continues.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

I accompanied both of my kids through their in-class hunter ed and field days.

I also attended the first year that bowhunter ed was available, in-class, with my father. He was proud that he managed 100% on the final test and I missed one. Never did hear the end of that one!

I attended the in-class trapper ed just to stay informed about all the rule changes.

All of the above were important and I enjoyed them immensely. Most of these required at least a 90 mile round trip. Online definitely has it's pluses but it will never provide the personal instruction gained during in-class education.

New neighbor's down the road had both of their kids complete their hunter ed online as soon as they moved in. They met their resident requirements just before the general season opener. I accompanied them several times throughout the season. Both of the kids would have benefited greatly from in-class learning!

 

[Nick87]

not take a dump next to a road,

Whoa whoa...let's just hang on a minute, there are times when your lucky to get the door open and the pants down. Just sayin.

 

[Nick87]

Hunter Ed is a great tool to teach new hunters, but it's an even better tool to keep hunting in a positive light and ensure that even in blue states, it continues.

When you think about it you could take "hunters ed" to a whole new audience and meaning if you could approach it correctly. If done right it could be a real milestone with the non hunting audience.

 

[SAJ-99]

3 years of music is mandatory. That one has always baffled me.

Be baffled no more. There is a pretty well-established link. As with your list, the number of things needing to be taught > than the number of hours available. The solution is increase the number of hours in school or teach a full calendar year (like 3.5 months on 2weeks off or something).

Music and Learning: Does Music Make You Smarter?

What is music and why do people think it is important for learning? Musical sounds fill our lives: from the music you share online to the songs playing in shops and restaurants, we are rarely far from music. Playing music gives the brain a multisensory “workout” that can strengthen memory, help...

kids.frontiersin.org

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Ben Lamb... same crap I dealt with, if some parent in Bozeman wants to take their kids turkey hunting this spring the only way to make that happen is to drive to Big Timber every night from 7pm to 9pm.

So yeah... they are going to take the L and sign up for the Idaho class. Fix the system then change the law, cart before the horse here.



but you know 100 seats in the thriving metropolis of Lewistown

 

[Nick87]

Be baffled no more. There is a pretty well-established link. As with your list, the number of things needing to be taught > than the number of hours available. The solution is increase the number of hours in school or teach a full calendar year (like 3.5 months on 2weeks off or something).

Music and Learning: Does Music Make You Smarter?

What is music and why do people think it is important for learning? Musical sounds fill our lives: from the music you share online to the songs playing in shops and restaurants, we are rarely far from music. Playing music gives the brain a multisensory “workout” that can strengthen memory, help...

kids.frontiersin.org

I call bullshit. Edit- with all due respect I call bullshit, working on my manners.

 

[SAJ-99]

I call bullshit. Edit- with all due respect I call bullshit, working on my manners.

Of course you do. Learning gun safety = Great, learning about music = waste of time. Like I said, pretty well-established. Don't just call bullshit, read the studies and let me know.

 

[TOGIE]

this thread and its comments have me trying to reflect on my hunters ed experience when i was like 13 or 14, whatever it was.

and that's the funny thing, i can't really reflect on it because i don't remember jack chit. it was in person and we shot .22 at the indoor rifle range at cpw headquarters.

i remember one night was in the back of a wal mart, we watched a deer get gutted on a 20 inch crt tv on a tall wheely stand. the rest was at cpw headquarters and i couldn't tell you basically anything about the content.

i remember the instructor said all parents taking the class with their kids have to buy their kid a new gun if their kid beats their final test score. my dad and i tied, missing one question each.

point being, 99% of my actual, practical, learned hunters ed came from learning on the go on my first hunts, listening to and watching steve rinella and randy newberg and much more later after spending lots of time on this forum. i never actually went hunting until i was 26 turning 27.

hunters ed is important but i can't help but think that for young kids, it's largely a box that needs to be checked off and i wonder if we shouldn't put too much stake in it. parents are the real hunting educators, my dad and i never actually went out, because he didn't actually know how to do so and not ruin me on hunting because of his own ignorance. so i self taught via the podcasts and content of people like rinella and newberg that are excellent examples of how to hunt properly and think properly about hunting.

having a required in person field day is good, and will likely help spur curiosity and questions in children that lead to good and better outcomes. but i honestly think it won't do anything to make kids better hunters. like at all. 99.99% of what makes kid good, proper, ethical, thinkin' hunters comes after hunters ed IMO.

hunters ed should probably honestly be 80% gun safety (over 50% should occur in person with fake and real guns); 15% processing, field, and home prep; and 5% general hunting education.

and at the same time 100% of hunters ed should be connecting kids that don't have people to take them out, with people who know what's up to take them out.

just rambling thoughts... while good, i guess i really don't think mandatory in person time is all that hugely important, even though it is.

 

[Nick87]

Of course you do. Learning gun safety = Great, learning about music = waste of time. Like I said, pretty well-established. Don't just call bullshit, read the studies and let me know.

Never said it was a waste of time, music's great if you have an interest. I said I don't think it's necessary to be mandatory every year when there's more important electives to be had in its place. Gun safety should be something that you can take if your interested in not mandatory same with music. FYI when I was in school you had three options that were mandatory choir, band, or music studies. Only one of those involved singing that I recall as it relates to your article.

 

[Scott85]

It does add another layer to it but it’s totally necessary. No different than drivers license and drivers Ed. People plan for that ahead of time.

There’s a lot of people new to hunting that don’t know anything about it other than what they’ve seen on the internet and tv. These wackadoodle influencers aren’t teaching new hunters anything good. The days of learning from Grandpa are all but gone. “We” have to set the standard for entry into our culture or no one will.

The only problem with that is not every state requires an in person course but every state has reciprocity with every other state.

 

[Addicting]

When you think about it you could take "hunters ed" to a whole new audience and meaning if you could approach it correctly. If done right it could be a real milestone with the non hunting audience.

It could also be the opposite depending on the intention of who is forced to teach it. Mandatory can bring on unintended consequences.

 

[SAJ-99]

Never said it was a waste of time, music's great if you have an interest. I said I don't think it's necessary to be mandatory every year when there's more important electives to be had in its place. Gun safety should be something that you can take if your interested in not mandatory same with music. FYI when I was in school you had three options that were mandatory choir, band, or music studies. Only one of those involved singing that I recall as it relates to your article.

I just posted one article to make the point. You said you were baffled.
The argument can be made that PE should not be mandatory. Look at US obesity rates and say "It's not working, so make it elective". Hell, math isn't working either, so make that elective.

Conclusion, the things that should be mandatory outnumber the number of hours in the day. That will be the headwind for making gun safety a class in schools. And I don't want parents determining what is and isn't mandatory as the curse of the majority just imparts their biases on what kids learn and don't learn. I do agree it should be called "gun safety" and not "hunter ed". Someone will have to make an argument to me to change my mind.