Corner crossing SCOTUS appeal

[Treeshark]

That case resulted in an AG opinion by Pat Crank

Let’s just pause on this dude for a second…

 

[SAJ-99]

You might want to reconsider that post and do some research before popping off.

The 4 hunters were from Missouri in this case. The preceding case in Albany county that was pretty integral for the current one was absolutely a Wyoming resident. At that time, the WWF actually backed that guy and a Wyoming Judge, Robert Castor tossed the corner crossing case. That case resulted in an AG opinion by Pat Crank that corner crossing did not result in trespass to hunt. At that time the GF issued guidance to their wardens to not ticket for corner crossing.

Further, there were corner crossing tickets issued even after the AG opinion and the direction given by the GF director. Thanks to guys like @JM77 and his diligence as well as his relationships with various GF Directors, those tickets were tossed before they ever saw a trial or a CA's office. Lots of little gems that you don't know jack about that were dealt with before they became a problem.

Let's not forget that Brad Cape also didn't call some clown from Montana, Washington, etc. to ask if they should just pay the bond or fight the case. They contacted Jeff, who got in touch with me and asked if WYBHA would be willing to take the case on. It was also Jeff's personal attorney that recommended Ryan and 3 others for the Carbon County case. I can also tell you that guys like Jeff, Pete, Steve, myself, and others put a lot of our money into this case at the start. I also know for a fact, that Jeff paid for the retainer on at least one if not two of the attorneys not knowing if he would be reimbursed. A disproportionate amount of the funding came from WY citizens and WYBHA. I could go on all day about the number of hours that a handful of WY hunters spent on this case and its all that WYBHA has worked on for the past 5 years. Lets not also forget about the favors that WYBHA had to ask of a couple other groups that weren't afraid to tackle this monster. Of course, there were the phone calls I received from work asking questions about why I was involved in this case and the razor thin line I walked for 5 years.

So, yeah, the guys from Missouri took a chance, but they never would have without the help, guidance, money, time and effort from WY resident hunters. Ask Brad, he'll tell you the same thing.

The facts aren't chest thumping, Pal...and anytime you want to step up and do it better, I invite you to do so.

Finally, the lead attorney, in case you didn't get the memo, is a Wyoming Resident who lives in Casper. Also, in case you still aren't aware, he slam dunked this case and won big.

You are correct that I didn’t read every corner crossing case in Wy cited in the decision and I do appreciate the work you all did. I also think there is an opportunity to use this case to further the cause. None of that is the point. The guys from Missouri put their necks out there. They took the risk.

You clearly want to argue and not acknowledge others in their simple comments that Montana is not Wyoming and crossing at a marked corner is not the same as crossing “pretty close”. In the right circumstances I would CC without hesitation, but I read the entire case decision and I certainly know what it doesn’t say.

I will await BHA’s new guidance to “flood the zone” with corner crossing and tell landowners to pound sand. Won’t hold my breath though, because this is far from settled. I would even say that Montana BHA might not give the same level of support that WYBHA did in similar circumstances. If they would, they need to find a corner with a landowner and prosecutor willing to prosecute and find hunters willing to take the risk.

 

[BuzzH]

You are correct that I didn’t read every corner crossing case in Wy cited in the decision and I do appreciate the work you all did. I also think there is an opportunity to use this case to further the cause. None of that is the point. The guys from Missouri put their necks out there. They took the risk.

You clearly want to argue and not acknowledge others in their simple comments that Montana is not Wyoming and crossing at a marked corner is not the same as crossing “pretty close”. In the right circumstances I would CC without hesitation, but I read the entire case decision and I certainly know what it doesn’t say.

I will await BHA’s new guidance to “flood the zone” with corner crossing and tell landowners to pound sand. Won’t hold my breath though, because this is far from settled. I would even say that Montana BHA might not give the same level of support that WYBHA did in similar circumstances. If they would, they need to find a corner with a landowner and prosecutor willing to prosecute and find hunters willing to take the risk.

JFC, in all my years of fighting for public lands I've never seen anyone so afraid of winning.

The blueprint is already there for Montana. Step up. All you have to do is raise 300k, put your reputation and career on the line, pay out of pocket for retainers, donate 5 years of your free time to it.

Piece of cake...

 

[Forkyfinder]

Most of you keyboard warriors don't know the backstory nor, judging from your whiny/bitchy posts, wouldn't have the huevos to fight CC.

Well most people didnt for a long time - it wasnt as if it was a mystery that elk were in that area for many years.

JFC, in all my years of fighting for public lands I've never seen anyone so afraid of winning.

The blueprint is already there for Montana. Step up. All you have to do is raise 300k, put your reputation and career on the line, pay out of pocket for retainers, donate 5 years of your free time to it.

Piece of cake...

Arent you making it up here to go after the near extinct public land elk in MT on your discount OTC ?

 

[JM77]

You are correct that I didn’t read every corner crossing case in Wy cited in the decision and I do appreciate the work you all did. I also think there is an opportunity to use this case to further the cause. None of that is the point. The guys from Missouri put their necks out there. They took the risk.

You clearly want to argue and not acknowledge others in their simple comments that Montana is not Wyoming and crossing at a marked corner is not the same as crossing “pretty close”. In the right circumstances I would CC without hesitation, but I read the entire case decision and I certainly know what it doesn’t say.

I will await BHA’s new guidance to “flood the zone” with corner crossing and tell landowners to pound sand. Won’t hold my breath though, because this is far from settled. I would even say that Montana BHA might not give the same level of support that WYBHA did in similar circumstances. If they would, they need to find a corner with a landowner and prosecutor willing to prosecute and find hunters willing to take the risk.

Stop worrying about judges and prosecutors and put your faith in the jury. Obviously a LEO has to write a ticket first.
The jury in Rawlins, Wy let the Missouri 4 off in lightning fast time on two years worth of tickets, which included swinging around a post that was in the way of the brass cap.

 

[BuzzH]

Well most people didnt for a long time - it wasnt as if it was a mystery that elk were in that area for many years.

Arent you making it up here to go after the near extinct public land elk in MT on your discount OTC ?

Elk are a by-product that occasionally ruin a perfectly good day of whitetail hunting.

Funny thing is, my NR otc sorry ass has killed more elk by accident than most whining residents have on purpose.

Anything else?

 

[BuzzH]

Stop worrying about judges and prosecutors and put your faith in the jury. Obviously a LEO has to write a ticket first.
The jury in Rawlins, Wy let the Missouri 4 off in lightning fast time on two years worth of tickets, which included swinging around a post that was in the way of the brass cap.

Here I thought I would be hearing about all the cool places that hunters were going to be trying in newly accessible public lands.

Instead all I'm seeing is a bunch of bed wetting.

Not at all what I expected.

 

[Irrelevant]

Here I thought I would be hearing about all the cool places that hunters were going to be trying in newly accessible public lands.

Instead all I'm seeing is a bunch of bed wetting.

Not at all what I expected.

Some of us just aren't talking about it. No need to ruin another good spot

 

[sclancy27]

Some of us just aren't talking about it. No need to ruin another good spot

No shit. Some people just have to blow it up for the rest of us

 

[Borny1]

If I were a landowner with checkerboard sections adjacent to my property I’d probably take the initiative to clearly mark my property corners to insure the likelihood of accidental trespass is lowered and to ensure I had sufficient evidence to prove intentional trespass if it was a problem.

It doesn’t seem that complicated to delineate the border of your private property with a low stake or sign that can be stepped over to direct public access over the pin.

That and/or why doesn't BLM or states do it now knowing what they know? It would be cheap and easy. Between the two of them they could get all the high traffic crossings done in a couple years.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Who knew winning a corner crossing case would just give public land hunters another reason to call each other names and lob insults at each other.

Didn’t see that one coming

 

[DFS]

Who knew winning a corner crossing case would just give public land hunters another reason to call each other names and lob insults at each other.

Didn’t see that one coming

I don’t think anything I’ve read has been insults. People are just rationalizing and working things out.

 

[mtmuley]

Who knew winning a corner crossing case would just give public land hunters another reason to call each other names and lob insults at each other.

Didn’t see that one coming

I did. mtmuley

 

[Borny1]

In 90% of corner crossing situations, how could you be prosecuted? If you turned off OnX and were within close proximity to the corner, how could there even be a case? There is nothing showing the corner and your position to it. They have zero proof to say you trespassed. I'm gonna play checkers on the Crazy Mountain checkerboard starting Saturday!

 

[Beignet]

Who knew winning a corner crossing case would just give public land hunters another reason to call each other names and lob insults at each other.

Didn’t see that one coming

Yeah, oof. The direction of this thread gives me the big yawns about giving a chit. It's like watching children squabble at each other with "I know you are but what am I?"

Hope everyone has an enjoyable season.

 

[brownbear932008]

In 90% of corner crossing situations, how could you be prosecuted? If you turned off OnX and were within close proximity to the corner, how could there even be a case? There is nothing showing the corner and your position to it. They have zero proof to say you trespassed. I'm gonna play checkers on the Crazy Mountain checkerboard starting Saturday!

Good point actually! One could possibility be just helping the prosecution if one were to occur by keeping tracks on. The State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt why give them anything in the first place. Of coarse I'm speaking in a non pin type situation.

 

[Irrelevant]

Who knew winning a corner crossing case would just give public land hunters another reason to call each other names and lob insults at each other.

Didn’t see that one coming

Not on your bingo card? I had it top shelf second from the right.

 

[JAG]

I would, and without a second thought. Makes no difference if there's boot tracks in the snow, mud, whatever. The courts are going to look at what a reasonable person would do in that situation, snow or not. If the best tool you have is 5-10 foot accuracy, the landowner has nothing better to prove you're wrong. Pictures in the snow mean zero.

If your footprints compress the frozen H20 and never touch the ground, then you only entered the airspace above private land.

No stepladder, helicopter, marker, or paramotor necessary.

 

[ropeup79]

Good point actually! One could possibility be just helping the prosecution if one were to occur by keeping tracks on. The State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt why give them anything in the first place. Of coarse I'm speaking in a non pin type situation.

Even when there is a marker, OnX could show you are off of it by several meters. Personally I will turn off tracking, take a picture of the marker, then turn the tracking back on. Heck, I might not even use the tracking if I find the marker, just a picture to show I found it. On an unmarked or buried marker I will use tracking to show I tried to cross at the most accurate location.

 

[Hammsolo]

All this talk of tracking… I usually forget to turn it on. The only reason I ever wish I had is when I drop something or leave something on a sit spot. Usually I turn it on after having had to backtrack to find my Walkers Game Ears that I’ve dropped for the second time… This actually happened a few weeks ago.

Would OnX tracks or GoHunt tracks or whatever even hold up in court? I personally don’t think so. It would be easy to cast reasonable doubt either direction. Either side could argue about the inaccuracy of the tool. We’re not hauling around precise tools like a surveyor.