Combating Point Creep
- Thread starter Paisano
- Start date
I would get rid of the point systems and for very high demand tags, I would implement waiting periods, or as some states have done for some species, once-in-a-lifetime rules.
But, once you start a point system, any changes to the system usually screw the guys who have been investing in points under that system.
For the most part, I don't worry about point creep. I look at points as a quasi-perishable item. I hope I sure with no points in my name. Burn them as soon as you can. Hunt more, not less.
If family or business/work imposed on my hunting time, I would accumulate points, but not worry about creep. Once things changed and time allows, I would be spending those points as soon as I could.
Point creep is only an issue, if you let it be an issue. Further perpetuated by those research services and tag application services, all of whom benefit from point creep.
I used to despise those services, but now am very glad so many hunters follow the advice of these services. I draw way more tags now, than I did when I followed those theories.
But, once you start a point system, any changes to the system usually screw the guys who have been investing in points under that system.
For the most part, I don't worry about point creep. I look at points as a quasi-perishable item. I hope I sure with no points in my name. Burn them as soon as you can. Hunt more, not less.
If family or business/work imposed on my hunting time, I would accumulate points, but not worry about creep. Once things changed and time allows, I would be spending those points as soon as I could.
Point creep is only an issue, if you let it be an issue. Further perpetuated by those research services and tag application services, all of whom benefit from point creep.
I used to despise those services, but now am very glad so many hunters follow the advice of these services. I draw way more tags now, than I did when I followed those theories.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
"I used to despise those services, but now am very glad so many hunters follow the advice of these services. I draw way more tags now, than I did when I followed those theories"
Shush, LOL!!!
Shush, LOL!!!
dustinf
Active member
Not sure why, but the way you phrased that, made me giggle.
To the OP,
Excluding sheep, I gave up on all point systems. There are just too many good OTC tags, I'd rather spend my money on actual tags than preference points.
That said, I'd rather hunt the mountains of Idaho for 2 weeks and come home empty handed, than spend 3 days trophy hunting in New Mexico. That's just my opinion(subject to change without notice).
We get sold the idea of point systems to supposedly make the draw more fair or to make the odds closer to what they statistically should be and eliminate the anomaly of some guy drawing year after year, when others go years without drawing. That is what we pay for, both with more money to implement/participate in the systems and more complexity to design and operate the systems.
Point systems really do nothing to change odds. Or, if they do, it comes at a great expense to the odds of new hunters who have not been buying points for years.
The best way to improve odds is to work toward growing the herds so more opportunity can be had. I often wonder if point systems inadvertently cause people to think their is an easier way to get a tag, thus changing the point of emphasis to point systems, and away from increasing animal numbers.
Example:
No point system in the world will improve the resident and non-resident odds of a Montana bighorn tag as much as increasing herd numbers. All you read about is the huge rams in Montana, so everyone thinks it is all great here. We issue less than half the tags we used to, which reduces odds, even if app numbers stayed the same. Apps have increased dramatically due to the reputation of world class sheep, making odds even worse.
Yet, if we were able to restore the Rock Creek, Tendoy, Melrose, and Anaconda herds to what they once were, the odds of a MT sheep tag would almost double. That requires some money, but mostly advocacy to change some policies, both State and Federal. Seems point systems give the false impression that some sort of fairness is now at play, making it OK if MT sheep tag numbers are way down.
Not saying all people feel that way, but there are a lot better and easier ways to improve our odds on some of these hunts/species than the ridiculously complicated schemes the states have come up with.
Yeah, I know some will say the long-term applicants should be rewarded and the beginners can wait their turn. I listened to those arguments when I was one of the committee members who sat on the Montana Preference Point Committee.
A friend of mine always says, "Beware of old men in a hurry." When I sat on the MT committee, I was 36, which made me the youngest person on the committee by many, many, years. When I suggested we hold out some of the tags and make them a random draw, I was looked at as though I had lost my mind. I was the only person who had a son who would be entering the hunting ranks in the next few years, so I was trying to think of his age group. Needless to say, the old men were in a hurry to make sure they got their coveted tag before they were done hunting, so the case I made for the younger hunters did not go very far.
And, even when you want to make these schemes complex in the name of fairness, they still don't accomplish that.
I have drawn limited entry bull elk tags in Montana in 2004, 2009, 2010, 2012. Most guys have not drawn a single limited entry bull elk tag in that period. I am the poster child for how point systems do NOT solve all the perceived "fairness" issues.
I have drawn antelope/elk in the Wyoming "random" draw three times in the four years. I did not have enough points to be guaranteed the tag, yet I ended up with a tag, when some guys with one to three more points than me did not get the tag. Did the Wyoming system solve the supposed "fairness" issue? Not to those guys with more points than I had, but still did not get a tag in the year I did. It managed to make the system far more complex and more expensive, but did not solve the "fairness" issue.
I look at Idaho. I applied for moose for 12 years. Never drew, even though my odds were usually 5:1, or better. Some would say a point system would have helped assure me a tag. Maybe, but it would also complicate the Idaho system, make it harder to interest young hunters, and make it more expensive.
I think ID and NM have the best point systems - No point system.
Arizona has this remarkably complex system for non-residents. Their state, so they decide what they want to do. It discourages people from applying, which some may say is a good thing, making their odds better. I say hurdles to participation are not a good thing, even if less applicants helps my odds.
I am fortunate that business takes me to AZ often. So, wanting to maximize my odds, I planned my business travels to coincide with the non-resident hunter education class, allowing me to get a permanent bonus point. That put me at the top of the AZ bonus point pool for deer and the next year I drew a rifle mule deer tag for the AZ Strip.
How fair is that to the guy who does not have the time or money to go take the class? He is now one point behind the rest of us, screwing him over, especially now that AZ gives 20% of tags to the highest point holders. The NR tags (NRs subject to a 10% limit) for the highest demand hunts are all allocated in that first "20% draw," making AZ a true preference point system for those highest demand elk and deer tags. I don't think that is a good thing, but since I don't live in AZ, I just go by the rules they have implemented.
I look at Colorado, a true preference point system. It is good, in that you can almost plan what year you will be hunting, but for the younger hunters who find themselves 10 points behind on some tags, it is probably discouraging, lessening their interest in hunting. Yeah, I know there are other options for the kids on some species, but not on some of the highest demand species.
I know some will say, "We were all young at one point." Yup, we were. And at least for me, when I was young, there was not the plethora of abstract schemes employed by the states in these draws. When many of us were young, your odds were as good as the next guy.
Going back to my beginning comment of why these systems were developed, I do not think any state's system has accomplished the goals of fairness. Some have the support of hunters as being "more fair" than no system at all. Not sure the costs we are paying for that supposed increase in fairness is worth it.
I reality, I think point systems benefit some people - Those who take tons of time to learn them, research the behavior of other applicants, then apply accordingly (usually by applying where the rest of the crowd does not). The other beneficiaries are those who hire pros to do it for them.
These systems do not benefit beginners, or those who are too busy to research these complex schemes while working, raising families, volunteering in their communities, etc.
I understand the opinions of those who really have no concern for beginners or those too busy. The comments of "they can wait their turn," or "they have to make it a priority" will surely follow. I just happen to disagree that the opportunity to draw a public hunting tag should require the amount of time and experience many on this site invest in learning those systems, myself included. Doesn't make me right, just my perspective.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Bigfin hit that one out of the park...I couldnt agree more.
I get tired of whining old hunters who think the answer to all their drawing woes is implementing a point system.
Another big problem with point systems is when those same whining bastards discover one day that the very systems they've implemented are making drawing another, or their first, tag impossible...they want to start again making it "more fair for everyone". Or when their kids get to be hunting age and they find out that their kids drawing a tag is likely going to take a long, long, long time...they want to change the system.
IMO, the only thing more unfair than implementing any kind of bonus/preference system is changing one to once again "make it fair".
I'm like Bigfin, I play the game(s) that all the Western States implement, you have no choice if you want to apply as a NR. However, I wasnt in favor of MT's bonus point system, I'm dead set against WY resident deer/elk/antelope preference system, etc. I'm just not a fan of bonus/preference systems.
I guess I've been a receipient of some tags because of b/p systems, but I've also drawn some nice tags in states that didnt have them, or in SPITE of the systems as well.
I think the best way to go about DRAWING a lot of tags is to APPLY for a lot of tags in as many places as you care to hunt...and sticking with it. I know many people that apply for 1-2 states, only applying in the top areas with the worst odds...and then cry about being "unlucky"...really? Many have even stopped applying, but still whine about not drawing.
I also believe that many of the "top" hunts/units are wayyyy over-rated and that great hunts can be had in OTC, or very easy to draw units. I think that in a lot of cases, hunters that have waited years and years to draw some of the top hunts have very unrealistic expectations. Because of that, I think many are very disappointed in the hunt or the lesser quality animals they end up with from the areas they've waited years and years to draw.
To listen to people in the magazines, on these boards, etc. you would think that every trophy unit tag drawn results in a B&C caliber animal. Thats just not the case...and, is in fact, pure bullshit. Most harvested animals from the top units can be had annually...and easily...by any hunter that knows what he's doing in an OTC or easy to draw unit.
I like to hunt, and I'd rather experience lots of unique opportunities than wait for decades on the top units.
I get tired of whining old hunters who think the answer to all their drawing woes is implementing a point system.
Another big problem with point systems is when those same whining bastards discover one day that the very systems they've implemented are making drawing another, or their first, tag impossible...they want to start again making it "more fair for everyone". Or when their kids get to be hunting age and they find out that their kids drawing a tag is likely going to take a long, long, long time...they want to change the system.
IMO, the only thing more unfair than implementing any kind of bonus/preference system is changing one to once again "make it fair".
I'm like Bigfin, I play the game(s) that all the Western States implement, you have no choice if you want to apply as a NR. However, I wasnt in favor of MT's bonus point system, I'm dead set against WY resident deer/elk/antelope preference system, etc. I'm just not a fan of bonus/preference systems.
I guess I've been a receipient of some tags because of b/p systems, but I've also drawn some nice tags in states that didnt have them, or in SPITE of the systems as well.
I think the best way to go about DRAWING a lot of tags is to APPLY for a lot of tags in as many places as you care to hunt...and sticking with it. I know many people that apply for 1-2 states, only applying in the top areas with the worst odds...and then cry about being "unlucky"...really? Many have even stopped applying, but still whine about not drawing.
I also believe that many of the "top" hunts/units are wayyyy over-rated and that great hunts can be had in OTC, or very easy to draw units. I think that in a lot of cases, hunters that have waited years and years to draw some of the top hunts have very unrealistic expectations. Because of that, I think many are very disappointed in the hunt or the lesser quality animals they end up with from the areas they've waited years and years to draw.
To listen to people in the magazines, on these boards, etc. you would think that every trophy unit tag drawn results in a B&C caliber animal. Thats just not the case...and, is in fact, pure bullshit. Most harvested animals from the top units can be had annually...and easily...by any hunter that knows what he's doing in an OTC or easy to draw unit.
I like to hunt, and I'd rather experience lots of unique opportunities than wait for decades on the top units.
Big Fin makes some points that I would not have entertained, and I cannot disagree with him. I have been uncommonly lucky in drawings but always have been a bit uneasy about the "old whiners" who take away opportunity from young hunters. In any case, I don't see most states doing away with all their preference systems, even though I'd be happy to see them all eliminated.
dan.kirkpatrick
Well-known member
colorado,utah ,nev,wyom,oregon all getting point creep,just something to asume will keep climbing.
ihuntelk
Member
Thanks for the post BF.
I'll give you a +1 for each of my kids that are already way to low on the point totem pole before they even start. (+1, +1, +1, +1)
When Idaho proposed a point system 2 years ago, it was completely ludicrous! They tried to take the worst from each state and guarantee the 'old guys' would ALL draw their OIL species while the kids wouldn't even get the crumbs off the floor.
The conversation keeps coming up in Wyoming. Last year a couple new Senators/Legislators (Larry Hicks in Baggs) tried to pass it in the capitol, trying to guarantee themselves some tags. Thank goodness it was shot down.
I play the game in some of the western states but only because I know I'll hunt deer/elk/pronghorn in Wyo every year and can buy a good OTC deer tag in Idaho every year. I love to hunt WAY TOO MUCH to sit around and wait to draw the "top" units.
I'll give you a +1 for each of my kids that are already way to low on the point totem pole before they even start. (+1, +1, +1, +1)
When Idaho proposed a point system 2 years ago, it was completely ludicrous! They tried to take the worst from each state and guarantee the 'old guys' would ALL draw their OIL species while the kids wouldn't even get the crumbs off the floor.
The conversation keeps coming up in Wyoming. Last year a couple new Senators/Legislators (Larry Hicks in Baggs) tried to pass it in the capitol, trying to guarantee themselves some tags. Thank goodness it was shot down.
I play the game in some of the western states but only because I know I'll hunt deer/elk/pronghorn in Wyo every year and can buy a good OTC deer tag in Idaho every year. I love to hunt WAY TOO MUCH to sit around and wait to draw the "top" units.
BobT
Member
Personally, I despise any sort of points system, at 53 I probably fit into the "old whiner" category to some of you young punks. I think the only fair way to issue limited tags is a true random draw. Everyone has an equal chance that way, as long as it is a true random draw. I feel the same way about auction tags, why should some guy get a choice tag just because he has money to burn. Yes the auction tags provide a lot of revenue for some organizations but they remove any fairness from the system. If the RMEF foundation (just for example) has a tag they want to raise money on then raffle it off, one ticket per person, might not make as much money but sure would be a lot more fair. And while I'm bitching might as well add that I strongly object to any record book entries taken on auction type tags.
When I was a kid my dream was to take the "Grand Slam" of wild sheep, a military career interfered with that for many years. Then I retire and can't afford to hunt rabbits in the yard for quite some time let alone accumulate points for tags. Now that I have the time and resources to do it, I don't have the time to catch up on the points and even if I did my knees would not allow me to access sheep country very easily. So for all practical purposes my dream hunt has turned into a pipe dream. That's alright with me, I made choices and the chips fell and I don't have my sheep. I will suck it up and move on.
So either a random draw or free for all for me thanks!
Bob
When I was a kid my dream was to take the "Grand Slam" of wild sheep, a military career interfered with that for many years. Then I retire and can't afford to hunt rabbits in the yard for quite some time let alone accumulate points for tags. Now that I have the time and resources to do it, I don't have the time to catch up on the points and even if I did my knees would not allow me to access sheep country very easily. So for all practical purposes my dream hunt has turned into a pipe dream. That's alright with me, I made choices and the chips fell and I don't have my sheep. I will suck it up and move on.
So either a random draw or free for all for me thanks!
Bob
theat
Well-known member
Great post Big Fin, I agree with everything you had to say. In my opinion the best system for high demand tags would be a random draw with no BP/PP and a 8-10 year waiting period before anyone that draws can apply again.
I have given up on Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. I still apply for a couple of tags in Alaska, Idaho, and everything that I can here in Montana. I have yet to draw a special deer or elk tag, but I have drawn a goat and moose tag as well as been successful on an unlimited sheep hunt, so I would say I have been pretty lucky. There are plenty of nice deer and elk in OTC units.
I have given up on Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. I still apply for a couple of tags in Alaska, Idaho, and everything that I can here in Montana. I have yet to draw a special deer or elk tag, but I have drawn a goat and moose tag as well as been successful on an unlimited sheep hunt, so I would say I have been pretty lucky. There are plenty of nice deer and elk in OTC units.
I've got to hand it to y'all, there have been some great points made. Recently, myself and some friends have had discussion about the public hunt drawing system in Texas. I know it isn't talked about much on the national scene but for those of us who live here, you may as well try to draw. The way it works is basically like a raffle. If you don't draw for a particular category of hunt, you are awarded a preference point. However, next year, your name simply goes into the bucket twice instead of once for that same hunt category. So, in this instance, there is only a slight advantage to having preference points in most hunt categories because of the overall large volume of applicants. For example, last year 12,088 people applied for 903 gun white-tailed deer either sex tags.
I'm one of those guys with 5 or 6 points laying around per category wondering why I haven't drawn. After reading what you guys have to say, I'm starting to think the Texas system is pretty fair as is. The greater good of the system is giving anyone interested a chance to hunt. Saving up a bunch of points only to know you'd have to do it all over again once you draw isn't very appealing either. I think going to a Colorado style system would only make things worse and discourage people from applying for the draw.
Some have said our draw system here isn't "working" properly. I'm starting to think that the number one reason it isn't "working" is the simple fact that there are only a relatively small number of tags for a relatively large number of applicants. That's probably just the way it is going to be with such a limited amount of public land and a large population of hunters applying in for tags. It is what it is.
Thanks to all who shared and good luck this fall.
I'm one of those guys with 5 or 6 points laying around per category wondering why I haven't drawn. After reading what you guys have to say, I'm starting to think the Texas system is pretty fair as is. The greater good of the system is giving anyone interested a chance to hunt. Saving up a bunch of points only to know you'd have to do it all over again once you draw isn't very appealing either. I think going to a Colorado style system would only make things worse and discourage people from applying for the draw.
Some have said our draw system here isn't "working" properly. I'm starting to think that the number one reason it isn't "working" is the simple fact that there are only a relatively small number of tags for a relatively large number of applicants. That's probably just the way it is going to be with such a limited amount of public land and a large population of hunters applying in for tags. It is what it is.
Thanks to all who shared and good luck this fall.
sweetnectar
New member
I'm for anything that would help simplify government. So getting rid of points all together seems like a tax payer win.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
My solution is simply. Everyone apply for crap units and crap hunts next year in every state and burn up your points.
belly-deep
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 3,459
Point systems = $$ for game departments
BuzzH
Well-known member
I burned all my sheep points in AZ...
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
...............that you did.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
Thank you, I think......
sneakem
Well-known member
...Or one could buy a voucher or conservation tag and not have to wait their turn...
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