JoseCuervo
New member
BigSky,
Would you disagree with Dubya's assessment of his War of Terror in Iraq?
Would you disagree with Dubya's assessment of his War of Terror in Iraq?
Bozeman Saves the World?
- Thread starter Big Fin
- Start date
Big Sky- Your brilliant mind seems to not remember what it posted...
I'm simply using your brilliant assumption stated and bolded above in your post. Using this knowledge...and the fact that the "media" was behind getting soldiers better equipment and the "media" reporting about the conditions in the VA hospital got better conditions for injured soldiers...It only follows the liberal media was the catalyst for these changes. Are you now repealing your previous post and saying the media is NOT liberal? You complain about liberals flip flopping...you have flip flopped in a span of three posts and have yet to answer a question...typical Republican.
I'm simply using your brilliant assumption stated and bolded above in your post. Using this knowledge...and the fact that the "media" was behind getting soldiers better equipment and the "media" reporting about the conditions in the VA hospital got better conditions for injured soldiers...It only follows the liberal media was the catalyst for these changes. Are you now repealing your previous post and saying the media is NOT liberal? You complain about liberals flip flopping...you have flip flopped in a span of three posts and have yet to answer a question...typical Republican.
cjcj
New member
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Check out Richard's champaign contribution list. He's more than a little partisan, would you say Matt? He likes Barrack this go round. You going to vote for Obama too?
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?zip=27705&last=Kohn&first=Richard
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?zip=27705&last=Kohn&first=Richard
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Big Sky, you'll have to excuse Matt & Buzz. They suffer from chronic Rushphobia. Symptoms include, but are not limited to: Sourcing obscure left wing whack jobs, denying the reality of a liberal biased audio, visual, & print media, and insisting on rules of etiquette when dealing with an enemy sworn to dispense us, our children, our allies..basically everyone. They have been known to sit mesmerized by a soundless TV staring at the visage of a mute Katie Couric, Brian Wilson, or Harry Reid...
JoseCuervo
New member
NoHarley, Do you consider Dubya's October-2007 statement to be a "obscure" or "left wing whack job" statement, or, do you consider it to be Dubya finally realizing what a mess he has created and his lack of planning and his lack of execution has created an environment where the country no longer supports his War of Terror?
noharleyyet
Well-known member
*additive edit: forgot to include Jose...my bad, won't happen again.
Big Sky
Well-known member
Okay rather than sit here an argue with you guys all day I invite you to sit down and visit with our soldiers that are returning from the war. I have done this often as many of my students have served or are still serving over there and we keep contact via email when possible. Since some of you have this vision of the media always reporting the truth and that all their motives are pure, why don't you ask our soldiers how much the media is really helping the war.
Big Sky - Your comment is dead on, whether a person agrees with the war, or not. Everytime I talk to one of these soldiers, it amazes me at how lucky we are to have young people like them serving their/our country.
Our firm provides free services to any active military family, whether they are overseas, or not. They are very grateful people for what little we do for them, and the stories they share are unbelivable. I only wish they were rewarded more for the sacrafices they and their families are making. It makes my day when I see one of these families on my appointment schedule.
My biggest regret is that we have a lot of politicians, local, state, and federal, who don't talk to these folks and get a first hand account of how the soldiers feel about this. The media (from both sides) is very selective of what soldiers they seek opinions of, using only the opinions that fit the "story spin" they want to present.
If our politicians were even half as capable as these soldiers, we would have been out of Iraq within two months, and Iran , North Korea, and Venezuela would be scared into good behavior. Unfortunately, we have a political machine that "can't stand the truth" and a media machine that gives the truth as they want people to see it.
God Bless these soldiers and their families this Christmas Season.
May Santa shit a brick down the chimney of the Bozeman City Commissioners.
Merry Christmas to ALL of you!
Big Sky
Well-known member
Big Fin, well said and better expressed than I could do it. Again to the Three Amigos when you have personally taken the time to talk to the returning soldiers, or visit with one in a hospitol bed because he's been shredded by a roadside bomb, or try to console the parents of a dead or dying soldier (while trying to console yourself at the same time), then you let me know how much help "you" or your media hereos have been. I mean seriously besides running your useless mouths, what have you actually done? Oh and btw, the last time I saw the soldier that was shredded by a roadside bomb (prior to the hospitol visit) was before he went to Iraq. He was our starting running back and helped us win the regional championship. He will never run again. Pretty hard to do with one leg. So yes, I do take some of this stuff personal.
JoseCuervo
New member
You can live in your fantasy world and believe that the Bozeman City Council and 3 people on a hunting forum are the problem if that helps you deal with your need to blame someone.
Let it all out if that helps you feel good about yourself.
Meanwhile, don't waste any time blaming Dubya for his failed policies. That can't be the cause of your heartache and your inconsolable bouts.
JoseCuervo
New member
BigFin,
Do you agree with or disagree with the "media's" cooperation with the Bush Administration to not show the pictures of the flag draped coffins? Do you think the Bush Administration is wrong for asking for the moratorium or do you think the media is wrong for complying with the embargo on said pictures?
By Politicians, I assume you mean the Bush Administration who thought the troops would be greeted as "liberators" instead of "occupiers"? And, I also assume you don't mean the Democrat controlled congress that just re-authorized a "blank check" funding appropriations bill for Dubya's War of Terror?
OK Jose, I will take your bait:
I understand why Bush asked for it, and I understand why the media complied. I don't know if that is a question where my opinion would matter. I would leave it to the families of those who died. If it were my decision, I would probably have not made that request, but for a different reason. Everytime I see a flag-draped coffin, I think about the life that could have been, and how grateful I am that this person gave their life for a country they loved, whether they believed in the reasons for this war, or not.
Personally, I think the public needs to see these coffins. To me they represent all our freedom is based on, and should make people think long and hard about this war and hopefully spur them to demand more action and accountability of the politicians on all sides.
Again, that is a hard issue that I would defer to the families of the soldiers. Not an issue the politicians should use for election fodder.
I mean all politicians, regardless of party. Both sides use this war for their own political gain. It pisses me off when they (all politicians) use the war, and the soldiers who are paying the price, as pawns in a bigger scheme to further the cause of their parties. Both sides are guilty of this.
Sitting around and pointing fingers about whose fault it is just gets more soldiers killed by delaying solutions that could bring a quicker conclusion to this situation.
It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but being the skeptic I am, I have concluded the following.
If it were a military solution, the solution would have been found, implemented, and we would long ago been out of there. The military has done its job and done it well.
It is now, and has been all along, a political solution and as long as politicians want to use it as an election issue, they will never get the balls to implement a political solution.
Going in was a heavily political, staying their is politics, and leaving without finishing the job is politics.
Whether we like the current situation or not, we are in it and we have got to finish the job. Pulling out prematurely is bullshit and dishonors those who gave so much. Staying there without politicians having the balls to stick their neck out and say we have Plan X and we are going to implement Plan X, even if it pisses off the Sunnis, the Shities, the Saudis, the Russians, the Isrealis, the Turks, the Dems, or the Republicans, is just as bad.
When I listen to the Democratic debates and hear folks who voted for the war, act like they had nothing to do with it, I wann'a jump up and put an ass whoopin' on them.
When I hear Republicans run scared and not stick to the principles they originally cited as reasons to go to war, due to the most recent political poll regarding the war, I wanna kick their ass also.
Let's face. Times like this require a leader. Leadership requires assertive action, knowing you may not be popular, but it is the right thing to do. We have military leaders who aren't worried about popularity.
Unfortunately, we have political leaders who are spineless pissheads, more worried about re-election than they are about doing the correct thing for the pawns (the military) who they have sent to do their dirty work.
I am an equal opportunity abuser when it comes to politicians. I want leaders, regardless of which side of the aisle they come from.
Having read your comments, I know you are smart enough to understand this is not Dubya's war on Terror, as he couldn't have sent troops without the help of a lot of political opponents. It is our war being fought by our soldiers. Calling it Dubya's war and denying the involvement of other politicians is the exact chicken shit thing I am referring to that pisses me off and keeps us focused on blame, rather than solutions.
IMHO, the sooner folks admit it is OUR war, including limp wrist city government politicians, and start demanding leadership rather than finger pointing, the sooner we will find a working solution in Iraq. Maybe I have too high of expectations. I know these soldiers have that expectation, and that expectation is not being met.
The lives lost have been as a result of Democratic Senate and House votes in 2003, as much as it was from Republican votes. Who gives a shit how we got here? Lets figure out how to finish what we started.
Dumb ass things like the stunt pulled by the Bozeman city commission are exactly the things I am talking about. It is strictly some local pinhead politico wanting to get a little media time, and in doing so, disgraces those who have died in this cause, and pisses off a lot of people like me, who come from both parties.
Shame on the whole fu@4ing crew for sending young men and women off to die and carry out a military plan, when they don't have a political plan, or lack the courage to implement a political plan.
Enough of my rambling. The reason for starting this post was to point out how many people want to make political gain from the sacrifices of others. All my satire and tirades will probably not change that, but I will continue to do all I can to help those who are sacraficing.
Once again, God Bless the soldiers and their families.
While he is at it, Santa should shit some bricks down the chimneys of the hypocritical politicians who voted for the war and now act like they didn't.
Big Sky
Well-known member
JoseCuervo, every once in a great while you say something intelligent. Your last reply to me wasn't one of them. Now go back to playing with your Hillary blow up doll.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Big Fin,
What is the "solution"?
How much time, how much money, and how many lives will it take for GW, (who by the way obviously isnt a leader), to come up with a solution?
How much patiance is expected of the American People for GW to come up with a solution?
Shouldnt you have a solution in mind BEFORE you decide to occupy a country?
The problem is not with the military and their effectiveness at winning a war, its the fault of Bush and HIS worthless rat pack (Wolfowitz, Rove, Rumsfeldt, etc.) not having the foggiest god-damned clue what they were doing.
For Christ sake, GW's Dad had more brains than his son...and Sr. wasnt building rockets in his spare time, I assure you.
Should have handled Iraq the second time like we did the first time...bomb them back into the stone age. Which, by the way, was still unnecessary as they didnt have SHIT for WMD's.
So, go ahead and let GW off the hook. The POTUS should never be held accountable for anything. Easier to blame someone else.
What is the "solution"?
How much time, how much money, and how many lives will it take for GW, (who by the way obviously isnt a leader), to come up with a solution?
How much patiance is expected of the American People for GW to come up with a solution?
Shouldnt you have a solution in mind BEFORE you decide to occupy a country?
The problem is not with the military and their effectiveness at winning a war, its the fault of Bush and HIS worthless rat pack (Wolfowitz, Rove, Rumsfeldt, etc.) not having the foggiest god-damned clue what they were doing.
For Christ sake, GW's Dad had more brains than his son...and Sr. wasnt building rockets in his spare time, I assure you.
Should have handled Iraq the second time like we did the first time...bomb them back into the stone age. Which, by the way, was still unnecessary as they didnt have SHIT for WMD's.
So, go ahead and let GW off the hook. The POTUS should never be held accountable for anything. Easier to blame someone else.
I don't have "The Solution." I doubt many people without expertise in diplomacy, world affairs, and other important skills, have a solution either.
There are people hired/elected and paid handsomely to be the experts on such issues. Part of getting elected/hired for these positions and the responsibilities that come with the position is to have answers and solutions. The politicians are taking a complete pass on a solution, sumberging themselves in the blame game.
BuzzH said:
If you read from my post that I think GW is a leader, I obviously wasn't clear enough, or you have not read it closely.
It is not just GW. It is also the other folks who voted for it and keep authorizing more debt to fund it, who are elected to come up with a solution. They were ALL elected to find a solution, either within their own committees, or via the advisors they hire for such issues.
I don't know how many more lives, or how much more time and money it will take, but I have written and asked all of my elected officials for explanation of the plan. The responses are lame and nothing but blame, bringing me to the conclusion that the current guys are either clueless or spineless. These guys are from both parties.
BuzzH said:
I think my post shows that I am out of patience with GW, the Republicans, and the Democrats. My patience is also tired of it being called GW's, or Dubya's, or dipshit's, or Mickey Mouse's war.
Like I responded to Jose. To call it GW's war, when so many from both sides voted for it, does nothing other than immerse us in the blame game, when we should be demanding answers and solutions, not finger pointing.
Why are yourselves and others always calling it GW's war or Dubya's war? That is as intellectually dishonest as saying GW had nothing to do with. You know damn well that we would not be in Iraq at all, if so many Dems had not also approved the war and continued authorizing more debt to fund it.
BuzzH said:
My point exactly!
The military had a solution, but the politicians didn't.
Do they have people smart enough to find a solution? I think so, but they don't have the balls to implement it, whatever that would be.
BuzzH said:
I think we agree on all of that, other than you seem to be giving a free pass to the Dems on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, many of whom sat on those committees long before GW became president.
Some of those people you are obsolving of responsibility have more experience and credentials in the area of national security and military intelligence than GW had at that time, so in some respects, we should hold them to an even higher expectation, if not at least the same level of accountability we hold GW to.
Leadership was not exercised by them at that point, so hopefully they will exercise is now.
BuzzH said:
Buzz, I think if you re-read my post, you will see that I answered Jose's question with - "All politicians". That includes GW.
If you read this post, and my posts about oil and gas issues, I have never given him the free ride so many prefer to give the Senate and House Democrats who are equally to blame.
I would ask why your responses, and those of others, seem to let the Dems who voted for this Iraq war off the hook.
Is it because now these folks say it has become a mess that they didn't forsee happening? No shit, it is a mess, but what are they going to do about? Just because it didn't turn out as they hoped when they voted for it doesn't make them any less responsible to find a solution.
They are as responsible for what is going on in Iraq as GW and others, but for some reason, no one holds them accountable for finding a solution. In my mind, that makes a solution less likely, as by saying "I was wrong" we imply that they can walk away and wipe their hands clean of a problem they helped create, leaving it to others to solve the problem these folks helped create.
If a solution is to just walk away from the frickin' mess over there, then we will disagree with that. The solution, what ever that is, will not replace the lives lost, and will not be Utopia for the Iraqi people. Hopefully it will eventually provide freedom they never experienced under Sadam, which should be the least we can hope for. Regardless, there will probably be no "perfect" solution.
For those who voted for the war originally, and now think that by saying it was a mistake somehow lets them off the hook, and they have no responsibility to help lead us to a solution, is a bunch of chit, IMHO.
I don't think we are too far apart on our views on this. I refuse to blame only one side, and I hold both sides accountable for where we are and have been asking both sides for answers. No answers seem to be forthcoming.
Letting one side off the hook doesn't seem correct either. JMHO!
God Bless the soldiers and their families.
When Santa is done shitting down the chimneys in Bozeman an Washington, DC, may he make a pass over the Mid-east and shit on the mosques of all the Sunnis and Shities (no, that is not a spelling error) who want to continue this conflict for their own personal gain.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Bigfin,
I dont agree with "shared" responsibility.
When the captain of a ship runs into an iceberg...you dont blame the violin player.
If the President isnt smart himself, I at least expect him to be smart enough to surround himself with people that ARE smart enough to handle complicated situtations like dealing with waging war and occupying foreign countries. But Dubya isnt even that smart...which is why his Father succeeded in dealing with Iraq and why Jr. has failed.
Of course all this should come as no shock with his resume of failures from Gov. of Texas to baseball teams to oil companies....all big flops.
The captain goes down with the ship. History will not be kind to the dumb Texan...and rightfully so.
But, WTF does he care? He can go back to what he knows best bass fishin' and Nascar.
I dont agree with "shared" responsibility.
When the captain of a ship runs into an iceberg...you dont blame the violin player.
If the President isnt smart himself, I at least expect him to be smart enough to surround himself with people that ARE smart enough to handle complicated situtations like dealing with waging war and occupying foreign countries. But Dubya isnt even that smart...which is why his Father succeeded in dealing with Iraq and why Jr. has failed.
Of course all this should come as no shock with his resume of failures from Gov. of Texas to baseball teams to oil companies....all big flops.
The captain goes down with the ship. History will not be kind to the dumb Texan...and rightfully so.
But, WTF does he care? He can go back to what he knows best bass fishin' and Nascar.
Fair enough. That explains why we differ on the topic.
I DO believe in shared responsibility, and I am content to disagree on that notion.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hunting!
BuzzH
Well-known member
Bigfin,
I respect your opinion.
I respect your opinion.
Nemont
Well-known member
Big Fin and Buzz,
About the most civil discussion I have seen.
Can you feel the love?
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
God bless our troops and please say a prayer for Sgt. Zach Cole, my brother, who is now back in Iraq for his third tour.
Nemont
About the most civil discussion I have seen.
Can you feel the love?
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
God bless our troops and please say a prayer for Sgt. Zach Cole, my brother, who is now back in Iraq for his third tour.
Nemont
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