Blame the Welfare Rancher??? Why
- Thread starter Bambistew
- Start date
BuzzH
Well-known member
Oak, yeah the rockies got hammered...but still a good game. I kind of like the Dbacks too, my old home town of Missoula has a farm club for the Dbacks. Fireworks rocked though, dont you think?
Troy Jones said, "Just wondering Buzz, how old are you, where were you raised, how long have you worked for the feds, what other jobs you've had and what vocational credentials do you have?"
Troy I'll answer those questions even though I dont see the relevance to the issue.
I'm 35.
I was born and raised in Montana, 3rd generation Montanan, on sabatical to Wyoming to expand my hunting areas.
Resume reads something like this:
Worked summers on my uncles ranch South of Missoula MT when I was 14-17. Didnt make much money, but enough to pay for a year of college. It wasnt a bad deal though, I got to unmercifully fish the 5 decent trout streams that ran through his place.
I started working for the Forest Service in 1987 and worked on several ranger districts in Region 1 through 1998. I also attended college when I wasnt working for the Forest Service, and kind of went as I had the money. It took me a while to get through school, but I didnt take a single loan, never took a dime from my folks, and eventually graduated with a degree in Forestry emphasis in Resource Management. I did lots of fire-fighting, broadcast burning, mapping projects, cruised timber, various inventory work, marked cutting units, Timber Stand Improvement projects, etc. etc. etc. all the usual Forestry stuff.
In 1998 I took a job working for the Riparian Wetland Research Program at the University of Montana. I was a project manager in charge of a large contract we had with Ted Turner. That job was pretty intense, tons of responsibility. I was responsible for all the remediation work on 2 of Teds ranches. That included an exhaustive inventory of the riparian areas (stream bank data, vegetation data, and streambed data, etc.) for about 30 miles of river and another 10 or so of tributaries. Dealt with macro-invertibrate sampling, water quality sampling, flow measurements, continual water temperature measurements, fish populations, etc. etc. Also set up an extensive bank monitoring project using cut and fill analysis. Surveyed key reaches of the river with a total station for analysis before and after bank treatments. Projected all this data into GIS layers with links to a large relational database. From all the data I wrote an annual report and a ranch management plan for dealing with riparian management...about a 400 page document. I occassionally worked on some of our other contracts with the BLM, some even in South Dakota.
The following years were more monitoring and remediation on the river and streambanks. Which had me dealing with permitting from the feds and state as well as setting up contractors to do the remediation. I did that until 2000, then quit to move to Wyoming. I went back to work for the FS and have been working for them again since 2000. I mostly inspect contract work the FS has delegated to the Colorado State Forest Service in my current job.
I've managed to stay employed in the Resource Management field for 17 years or so.
Not sure what conclusions you'll draw from all that...
That stuff, while interesting, isnt near as interesting as hunting, fishing, trapping, or messing around in the outdoors on my own time.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-04-2003 16:51: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
Troy Jones said, "Just wondering Buzz, how old are you, where were you raised, how long have you worked for the feds, what other jobs you've had and what vocational credentials do you have?"
Troy I'll answer those questions even though I dont see the relevance to the issue.
I'm 35.
I was born and raised in Montana, 3rd generation Montanan, on sabatical to Wyoming to expand my hunting areas.
Resume reads something like this:
Worked summers on my uncles ranch South of Missoula MT when I was 14-17. Didnt make much money, but enough to pay for a year of college. It wasnt a bad deal though, I got to unmercifully fish the 5 decent trout streams that ran through his place.
I started working for the Forest Service in 1987 and worked on several ranger districts in Region 1 through 1998. I also attended college when I wasnt working for the Forest Service, and kind of went as I had the money. It took me a while to get through school, but I didnt take a single loan, never took a dime from my folks, and eventually graduated with a degree in Forestry emphasis in Resource Management. I did lots of fire-fighting, broadcast burning, mapping projects, cruised timber, various inventory work, marked cutting units, Timber Stand Improvement projects, etc. etc. etc. all the usual Forestry stuff.
In 1998 I took a job working for the Riparian Wetland Research Program at the University of Montana. I was a project manager in charge of a large contract we had with Ted Turner. That job was pretty intense, tons of responsibility. I was responsible for all the remediation work on 2 of Teds ranches. That included an exhaustive inventory of the riparian areas (stream bank data, vegetation data, and streambed data, etc.) for about 30 miles of river and another 10 or so of tributaries. Dealt with macro-invertibrate sampling, water quality sampling, flow measurements, continual water temperature measurements, fish populations, etc. etc. Also set up an extensive bank monitoring project using cut and fill analysis. Surveyed key reaches of the river with a total station for analysis before and after bank treatments. Projected all this data into GIS layers with links to a large relational database. From all the data I wrote an annual report and a ranch management plan for dealing with riparian management...about a 400 page document. I occassionally worked on some of our other contracts with the BLM, some even in South Dakota.
The following years were more monitoring and remediation on the river and streambanks. Which had me dealing with permitting from the feds and state as well as setting up contractors to do the remediation. I did that until 2000, then quit to move to Wyoming. I went back to work for the FS and have been working for them again since 2000. I mostly inspect contract work the FS has delegated to the Colorado State Forest Service in my current job.
I've managed to stay employed in the Resource Management field for 17 years or so.
Not sure what conclusions you'll draw from all that...
That stuff, while interesting, isnt near as interesting as hunting, fishing, trapping, or messing around in the outdoors on my own time.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-04-2003 16:51: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
D
Deerslayer
Guest
hahahaaa
.....I was waiting for your reply post to ol' Troy. I bet you were laughing your ass off while writing it.
Maybe we can discuss some riparian management and forest plans when we're back-in 20 miles in about 7 weeks chasing wapiti with sticks
Maybe we can discuss some riparian management and forest plans when we're back-in 20 miles in about 7 weeks chasing wapiti with sticks
Troy Jones
New member
I guess I don't understand the joke. Just trying to see where Buzz accumulated his hard left ideology. I do understand now though, it's not hard to see. Buzz has been in the employment of the Forest service and BLM for 17 years. They have been employing a majority of lefty's for a good twenty years anyway. Worked for the Turner ranch "Need I Say More". All these particular life experiences has honed Buzz into a lean, mean, anti machine. I do respect Buzz as a hunter and have talked with him a time or two via e-mail, and have no problem with the guy what so ever. Unless you are actually around a guy, you have no idea what makes him tick. With such strong opinions coming from him, I was just curious. I don't know what was contrived in Deerslayer's thinking, or if he can fathom what I just said. But as far as me, I don't think good, bad or indifferent about anyone who has confictions of there own. If it makes you happy, more power to ya. I just don't want anyone with extreme bias opinions pertaining the info at hand to be collecting any data for me. The end result is bias data. I deal with hundreds of pages of documentation monthly, internally and externally, paper doesn't impress me. Good luck with your quest boy's, hope it works out for you.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I just don't want anyone with extreme bias opinions pertaining the info at hand to be collecting any data for me. The end result is bias data <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Troy, though I agree an extremist will certainly find data that is 'self-fullfilling'. But, you must also recognize that all data is biased, because of humans. Who would collect better data pertaining to this issue, someone from a liberal arts college or someone who was raised on a ranch?
Biases can and do go both ways, which is one of the problems with the 'Old Guard' of the BLM and USFS. Many of those in the grazing end of things came from ranching families. You don't think they may have biased their data in favor of ranching? Or how about the ones that get to hunt on certain permittee's private holdings or become their good friends? Do you think they are always objective with thier decisions?
I'll end by saying that things are getting better. Data is being collected with more advanced and standardized methods. Laws are being passed where the raw data, no just it's summary, has to be made public for outside scrutiny. This will hopefully lead to better decisions being made based on better data. Yeah, I know I'm a bit idealistic, but shouldn't we be when we're young...
Biases can and do go both ways, which is one of the problems with the 'Old Guard' of the BLM and USFS. Many of those in the grazing end of things came from ranching families. You don't think they may have biased their data in favor of ranching? Or how about the ones that get to hunt on certain permittee's private holdings or become their good friends? Do you think they are always objective with thier decisions?
I'll end by saying that things are getting better. Data is being collected with more advanced and standardized methods. Laws are being passed where the raw data, no just it's summary, has to be made public for outside scrutiny. This will hopefully lead to better decisions being made based on better data. Yeah, I know I'm a bit idealistic, but shouldn't we be when we're young...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'll end by saying that things are getting better. Data is being collected with more advanced and standardized methods. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, but that data being collected is "biased" against doing things the way Pa did them, 1_p. Don't you think Jimbob, who's lived on the land all his life knows better than you with your more "advanced and standardized methods"?
Oak
Oak
BbarC
New member
I don't understand where all these "textbook geniuses" get the ideas that being a rancher or even their so called "welfare rancher" is an automatic way of making a zillion dollars. Buzz said I didn't seem to have an idea about economics nor profit margin, etc. , well check out this not too uncommon scenario.
You go out and get you a bunch of that dollar land and go to the bank and borrow a few hundred thousand dollars promising to pay it back next year. Course they're not going to give it to you free, gotta pay some interest of course. You buy yoursel a bunch of cows at 60 cent /lb hoping you'll get some weight gain and MAYBE the price will go to 80 cents. Then you turn them out on this dollar government land. Think that's all, NOOOO !! You gotta have a little equip, stock,trailer, troughs, water tanks [ hoping there's some way to get water to them if there's not natural water there]a truck and/ or a tractor to haul in a little feed and a few dozen other MINOR pieces of equipment. x. The year rocks along amd wow you're gonna get rich!!! At the end of the year you have to sell them [bank note's due you know and you owe some interest there, bankers get rowdy if you don't pay them on time].You did have a few calves and get some weight gain, but you know that 60 cent /lb you paid? Well now the price is 50 cent/lb.Oh yeah you lost a few cows in calving, two died stuck in the mud , and the predators did get quite a few of the calves. You did have a FEW expenses. Had some gas and oil for the truck and the tractor, ruined 3-4 tires in the rocks, bought a few tons of feed and some hay, didn't rain when it was supposed to and the grass wasn't too good , you had to vacinate a couple times and had to have the vet out a couple times to check a cow or two, you did put quite a few miles on your pickup, had to pay a LITTLE commission at the sale barn,the boy down the road helped you several weeks and he didn't work for free, and there were a few other minor expenses that only amounted to a few thousand dollars. aaaand oh yes you did have to pay that piddly little land lease.
Well, you got the cows sold, got the bank paid [after you dipped pretty heavily into your private funds you got from mortgaging a piece of land you owned]. This was a pretty enlightening experience having this CHEAP lease and all, want to do it again??
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-05-2003 14:48: Message edited by: BbarC ]</font>
You go out and get you a bunch of that dollar land and go to the bank and borrow a few hundred thousand dollars promising to pay it back next year. Course they're not going to give it to you free, gotta pay some interest of course. You buy yoursel a bunch of cows at 60 cent /lb hoping you'll get some weight gain and MAYBE the price will go to 80 cents. Then you turn them out on this dollar government land. Think that's all, NOOOO !! You gotta have a little equip, stock,trailer, troughs, water tanks [ hoping there's some way to get water to them if there's not natural water there]a truck and/ or a tractor to haul in a little feed and a few dozen other MINOR pieces of equipment. x. The year rocks along amd wow you're gonna get rich!!! At the end of the year you have to sell them [bank note's due you know and you owe some interest there, bankers get rowdy if you don't pay them on time].You did have a few calves and get some weight gain, but you know that 60 cent /lb you paid? Well now the price is 50 cent/lb.Oh yeah you lost a few cows in calving, two died stuck in the mud , and the predators did get quite a few of the calves. You did have a FEW expenses. Had some gas and oil for the truck and the tractor, ruined 3-4 tires in the rocks, bought a few tons of feed and some hay, didn't rain when it was supposed to and the grass wasn't too good , you had to vacinate a couple times and had to have the vet out a couple times to check a cow or two, you did put quite a few miles on your pickup, had to pay a LITTLE commission at the sale barn,the boy down the road helped you several weeks and he didn't work for free, and there were a few other minor expenses that only amounted to a few thousand dollars. aaaand oh yes you did have to pay that piddly little land lease.
Well, you got the cows sold, got the bank paid [after you dipped pretty heavily into your private funds you got from mortgaging a piece of land you owned]. This was a pretty enlightening experience having this CHEAP lease and all, want to do it again??
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-05-2003 14:48: Message edited by: BbarC ]</font>
D
Deerslayer
Guest
So Bob......if it is that bad, why not do something else? Just a fair question.
I will go on record as saying Bob is a hardworking, great guy.......entre-manure....diversified....enterprised....and qualified in the ways of the world. Did I say, "I like Bob."? Hoefully I wil get over to see you soon.......just to make sure you ain't welfare ranching!
I will go on record as saying Bob is a hardworking, great guy.......entre-manure....diversified....enterprised....and qualified in the ways of the world. Did I say, "I like Bob."? Hoefully I wil get over to see you soon.......just to make sure you ain't welfare ranching!
BbarC
New member
Mark you have to understand that farming and ranching is as much a way of life as it is a business. My oldest son is a farmer and that is ALL he's ever wanted to do since he was a little kid. He farms some 2000 acres of irrigated cotton with just one hired hand. A pretty big job. He called me last fall after harvest and told me he'd made the best crop he'd ever made and just barely paid out. He will not give up though because that's his choice of what he wants to do. My best friend told me last week he'd lost money the last 5 years and has mortgaged a big portion of his land to cover expenses. He won't give up either as he said "he'd hit a good one soon". He's farmed for 60 years through the good and bad. I know many, many ranchers and they nearly all grew up on ranches dont know anything else and really dont want to. All these folks tend to stick to it through thick and thin as a way of life. It's certainly not a get rich quick scheme as some of these fellows on here seem to think.Maybe some of these guys could take a few lessons from some of the farmers and ranchers!!! Take care Mark!! Ol Bob
D
Deerslayer
Guest
Don't sound like much welfare ranching going on down that way Bob. Th guys you speak of hould want to throw up at some of the bullshit tat goes on elsewhere.
One note though......one of my good friends in La is aso a cotton farmer, a was his dad. Neither one of them ever made a dime doing it, but both lived in big fancy houses and drove big, nice, new vehicles. Ya see, he just kept claiming his losses each year, and the feds gave him some aide but mostly just kept refinancing his loans. They are so big there is no hope to ever get them settled, so he just keeps borrowing to make a living and just get by. He stays totally stressed out, works his ass off, and wil never get in the black.......but it is all e knows. So I do hear what your saying and understand it.
The comparison to be made would be if another cotton farmer was "given" land,or at least leased to for next to nothing, at the same time my buddy is busting his ass and paying full rate.......nothing would be fair about that at all.
The question above was "why blame welfare ranchers" ........the term referred to welfare ranchers.......not the hard working ranchers you speak of. If the question had been "why blame ranchers"....I could see reason to dispute it....but when you add the word welfare to it, I'm against it all the way.
One note though......one of my good friends in La is aso a cotton farmer, a was his dad. Neither one of them ever made a dime doing it, but both lived in big fancy houses and drove big, nice, new vehicles. Ya see, he just kept claiming his losses each year, and the feds gave him some aide but mostly just kept refinancing his loans. They are so big there is no hope to ever get them settled, so he just keeps borrowing to make a living and just get by. He stays totally stressed out, works his ass off, and wil never get in the black.......but it is all e knows. So I do hear what your saying and understand it.
The comparison to be made would be if another cotton farmer was "given" land,or at least leased to for next to nothing, at the same time my buddy is busting his ass and paying full rate.......nothing would be fair about that at all.
The question above was "why blame welfare ranchers" ........the term referred to welfare ranchers.......not the hard working ranchers you speak of. If the question had been "why blame ranchers"....I could see reason to dispute it....but when you add the word welfare to it, I'm against it all the way.
BbarC
New member
Mark, I'm missed that entre-manure bit while ago. Could say am full o chit once in a while, hehehe
I've seen quite a few guys that have been handed farms and ranches from their folks, and they truly lived high and pissed them off. Some of the "windshield farmers and ranchers do have a "different" accounting system,but they are few and usually don't make it for the long haul. Have to admit that both farming and ranching are pretty highly subsidized, but a big part of our economy is subsidized in some fashion. Airlines, railways, some contruction and more. Big government has it's finger in quite a few of our industries. I guess I've never been "lucky???" enough to get some of the gravy although I've had the opportunity several times on a couple of different pieces of land that I've owned to recieve some payments and assistance, I've never applied for it. Right now I could draw some aid on the prickly pear and brush control I'm doing, but won't apply for it. Stupid?? maybe. Keep in touch.. Ol Bob
I've seen quite a few guys that have been handed farms and ranches from their folks, and they truly lived high and pissed them off. Some of the "windshield farmers and ranchers do have a "different" accounting system,but they are few and usually don't make it for the long haul. Have to admit that both farming and ranching are pretty highly subsidized, but a big part of our economy is subsidized in some fashion. Airlines, railways, some contruction and more. Big government has it's finger in quite a few of our industries. I guess I've never been "lucky???" enough to get some of the gravy although I've had the opportunity several times on a couple of different pieces of land that I've owned to recieve some payments and assistance, I've never applied for it. Right now I could draw some aid on the prickly pear and brush control I'm doing, but won't apply for it. Stupid?? maybe. Keep in touch.. Ol Bob
BuzzH
Well-known member
Troy said, "I just don't want anyone with extreme bias opinions pertaining the info at hand to be collecting any data for me. The end result is bias data."
I'll tell you this, any individual that collects data and throws bias into the data, based on convictions, emotions, or whatever, is a piece of shit and should be removed from that job immediately.
I have collected data for many years, I've even developed some pretty good sampling methods for certain inventory work, and I feel I've collected that data with nothing but professionalism. Not that I'd want to, but even if I did want to bias data, I'd get my ass handed to me in a heartbeat and more than likely lose my job. It aint worth it personally or for the sake of science. Data these days has got to hold up to the scrutiny of some very intelligent people outside the agencies collecting data. The FOIA is real and people excercise the rights guaranteed under it thousands of times a year.
Troy, if you believe wanting to secure public grounds with some consideration given to wildlife as "left leaning" then so be it. Thats me, because I've seen how wildlife and the health of the pulbic lands have suffered and taken a back seat to profit, politics, etc. Thats a fact, and an indisputable one.
I've said it a hundred times, I'm not against logging, mining, grazing, etc. only when it damages the environment and only when wildlife isnt given any consideration. I like to hunt, fish, and trap and personally I feel its worth fighting to save whats left of it. If that means breaching dams or kicking some good ol'boy off a federal lease because he's trashing it...well, then so be it. I think sportsmen have paid a heavy enough price to want some certainity in their investment, but thats just the world according to me.
I'll tell you this, any individual that collects data and throws bias into the data, based on convictions, emotions, or whatever, is a piece of shit and should be removed from that job immediately.
I have collected data for many years, I've even developed some pretty good sampling methods for certain inventory work, and I feel I've collected that data with nothing but professionalism. Not that I'd want to, but even if I did want to bias data, I'd get my ass handed to me in a heartbeat and more than likely lose my job. It aint worth it personally or for the sake of science. Data these days has got to hold up to the scrutiny of some very intelligent people outside the agencies collecting data. The FOIA is real and people excercise the rights guaranteed under it thousands of times a year.
Troy, if you believe wanting to secure public grounds with some consideration given to wildlife as "left leaning" then so be it. Thats me, because I've seen how wildlife and the health of the pulbic lands have suffered and taken a back seat to profit, politics, etc. Thats a fact, and an indisputable one.
I've said it a hundred times, I'm not against logging, mining, grazing, etc. only when it damages the environment and only when wildlife isnt given any consideration. I like to hunt, fish, and trap and personally I feel its worth fighting to save whats left of it. If that means breaching dams or kicking some good ol'boy off a federal lease because he's trashing it...well, then so be it. I think sportsmen have paid a heavy enough price to want some certainity in their investment, but thats just the world according to me.
MarlandS
New member
Bob, just so we can argue since we haven't spoken in a while
In your scenario that you started like this " You go out and get you a bunch of that dollar land " I'm assuming you were refering to the BLM leases.
Just for sake of arguement, start it out "you go out and get you a bunch of that $10 land " (that's about the difference right?) Then run the rest of the scenario all the same.
WHO is going to lose less? Or, possibly come out ahead because their land cost is 90% less than the private land leasor?
There are really only two reasons to lose money in agriculture (1) poor management skills (2) poor production skills.
There could be three if you want to count CHOOSING to be in a business that is highly dependant on uncontrollable natural factors. Which would look like this: (3) freaking crazy.
I don't think anyone involved in Ag ventures would deny being crazy helps.
I have nothing against "welfare" ranchers, they are only taking advantage of what's available. Same as any smart business person.
I do have problems with the one's who treat the land like a rental house.
I've said it before and I'll say it again (just differently), the Western Agri-Professionals have a LOT of stuff working in their favor , if they screw it up because "it's the way Dad did it" or " I'll do it however I want, f*ck the regs" then they deserve the screwing they'll get.
Here's something that may not have been considered when the statement about $20 or $30 beef was made. There are close to a million acres laying idle in the southern part of IL. because it doesn't pay to crop it.
This land could easily be converted to pasture if the market demand were there (like if BLM land was closed to grazing) and around here we talk in terms of cattle per acre not acres per cow. We can turn 40 AUM's out on an 80 acre pasture and still have to mow it twice a year.
To top it off, we wouldn't have to ship the beef out for finishing (as I understand happens out West) the facilities are here, sitting idle. As are many processing plants.
Another plus would be creation of a stronger market for Illinois corn.
I guess my entire message is unless the businessmen who use public lands don't get busy and toe the line, they will create Al Gore's vision of "fly over country" or whatever his catch phrase was, and a great part of American History and HERITAGE will be lost.
Since Flames seem to be the norm here in SI anymore, I guess I better flame too. Ol' Bob plays nickle slots!!
I know that had to sting....
Just for sake of arguement, start it out "you go out and get you a bunch of that $10 land " (that's about the difference right?) Then run the rest of the scenario all the same.
WHO is going to lose less? Or, possibly come out ahead because their land cost is 90% less than the private land leasor?
There are really only two reasons to lose money in agriculture (1) poor management skills (2) poor production skills.
There could be three if you want to count CHOOSING to be in a business that is highly dependant on uncontrollable natural factors. Which would look like this: (3) freaking crazy.
I don't think anyone involved in Ag ventures would deny being crazy helps.
I have nothing against "welfare" ranchers, they are only taking advantage of what's available. Same as any smart business person.
I do have problems with the one's who treat the land like a rental house.
I've said it before and I'll say it again (just differently), the Western Agri-Professionals have a LOT of stuff working in their favor , if they screw it up because "it's the way Dad did it" or " I'll do it however I want, f*ck the regs" then they deserve the screwing they'll get.
Here's something that may not have been considered when the statement about $20 or $30 beef was made. There are close to a million acres laying idle in the southern part of IL. because it doesn't pay to crop it.
This land could easily be converted to pasture if the market demand were there (like if BLM land was closed to grazing) and around here we talk in terms of cattle per acre not acres per cow. We can turn 40 AUM's out on an 80 acre pasture and still have to mow it twice a year.
To top it off, we wouldn't have to ship the beef out for finishing (as I understand happens out West) the facilities are here, sitting idle. As are many processing plants.
Another plus would be creation of a stronger market for Illinois corn.
I guess my entire message is unless the businessmen who use public lands don't get busy and toe the line, they will create Al Gore's vision of "fly over country" or whatever his catch phrase was, and a great part of American History and HERITAGE will be lost.
Since Flames seem to be the norm here in SI anymore, I guess I better flame too. Ol' Bob plays nickle slots!!
BbarC
New member
Howdy Marlands, most things get "screwed up" when uncle sugar gets involved and agriculture is no exception, right?? Nickel slots, hrumph!!! Hehehe. Ol Bob
BigHornyRam
New member
BbarC said:
"most things get "screwed up" when uncle sugar gets involved and agriculture is no exception"
Amen!
Buzz,
Thanks for the resume. It sheads a lot of light on where you are coming from. Did working for Teddy require a socialist mindset to get the job, or did the job create the socialist mindset that you now have? Do you subscribe to Mike Phillips ideals when it comes to public land grazing?
There's a couple of experiences missing from your resume that would help to make you a more well rounded person. Try a few years of self employment and invest a sizeable amount of YOUR capital in that pursuit. Then come back and tell everyone how things should be done.
Paul
"most things get "screwed up" when uncle sugar gets involved and agriculture is no exception"
Amen!
Buzz,
Thanks for the resume. It sheads a lot of light on where you are coming from. Did working for Teddy require a socialist mindset to get the job, or did the job create the socialist mindset that you now have? Do you subscribe to Mike Phillips ideals when it comes to public land grazing?
There's a couple of experiences missing from your resume that would help to make you a more well rounded person. Try a few years of self employment and invest a sizeable amount of YOUR capital in that pursuit. Then come back and tell everyone how things should be done.
Paul
BuzzH
Well-known member
Paul, not sure where you get the "socialist" mindset bullshit...but whatever dude. Is it a socialists view to just want public lands and public wildlife to be in good shape? Must be, because thats about all I want.
As far as Teds ranches go, show me a large landowner in MT or anywhere else that has done more good things for the land or wildlife. You cant, and while you may not like Teddy, any one with half a brain can surely like his management on his various properties. I couldnt give a shit less about his politics, views, or anything else, but I respect the guys conservation efforts.
Werent you the one bitching about landowners "having" to sell out if welfare ranching coming to an end?
Guess who's land is all tied up in conservation easements, never to be developed?
You, along with many others on this board are a bunch of freaking hypocrits...
Listen to yourself Paul, you call Ted a socialist. For Christ sakes, he's invested more money in business ventures, and the capitalist United States in a month than you will in your entire life.
Ted also purchases high-dollar auction permits in Montana, contributing more money to wildlife programs with ONE tag than you will buying resident tags in Montana for the next 30 years. I'll tell you, it was great having an annual budget of $750,000 for riparian management, I wonder how many welfare ranchers invest that kind of coin into their riparian areas?
His ranches are lousy with excellent wildlife habitat and some of, if not the best, trophy quality animals in the state of Montana. He provides lots of public hunting opportunities, more than I can say for many good 'ol boys in Montana.
Nothing I hate worse than a guy trying to improve the health of the land, entering into conservation easements, taking care of wildlife, and securing large blocks of critical wildlife habitat from development...goddamned socialists
Oh, and I'm damn happy with the work I've done and the experience I have. You can only do so many in things in one lifetime, and if not owning my own business is one of them...fine with me.
Paul, care to post your resume?
As far as Teds ranches go, show me a large landowner in MT or anywhere else that has done more good things for the land or wildlife. You cant, and while you may not like Teddy, any one with half a brain can surely like his management on his various properties. I couldnt give a shit less about his politics, views, or anything else, but I respect the guys conservation efforts.
Werent you the one bitching about landowners "having" to sell out if welfare ranching coming to an end?
Guess who's land is all tied up in conservation easements, never to be developed?
You, along with many others on this board are a bunch of freaking hypocrits...
Listen to yourself Paul, you call Ted a socialist. For Christ sakes, he's invested more money in business ventures, and the capitalist United States in a month than you will in your entire life.
Ted also purchases high-dollar auction permits in Montana, contributing more money to wildlife programs with ONE tag than you will buying resident tags in Montana for the next 30 years. I'll tell you, it was great having an annual budget of $750,000 for riparian management, I wonder how many welfare ranchers invest that kind of coin into their riparian areas?
His ranches are lousy with excellent wildlife habitat and some of, if not the best, trophy quality animals in the state of Montana. He provides lots of public hunting opportunities, more than I can say for many good 'ol boys in Montana.
Nothing I hate worse than a guy trying to improve the health of the land, entering into conservation easements, taking care of wildlife, and securing large blocks of critical wildlife habitat from development...goddamned socialists
Oh, and I'm damn happy with the work I've done and the experience I have. You can only do so many in things in one lifetime, and if not owning my own business is one of them...fine with me.
Paul, care to post your resume?
Ithaca 37
New member
I'd like to see Paul and Troy both compare their wildlife habitat knowledge to Buzz's.
I doubt they even know what a noxious weed looks like.
Troy Jones
New member
Bachelors from South Dakota State University in Natural Resource Management, a four year Ag./Bio degree. Did this on my own and with a family to support. 2002 invasive species management supervisor of the year for South Dakota, and South Dakota's number one Supervisor for revenue generated through grants and Government contracts two years running. Personally in charge of 3500 square miles of Western South Dakota pertaining to invasives. Member of North American Weed Management Assoc., South Dakota Assoc. of Supervisors for invasive species management, Black Hills Resource Conservation and Developement Weed Management Committee, Elk Creek and Tri County Conservation district committees...
What invasives do you want to talk about?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-06-2003 15:14: Message edited by: Troy Jones ]</font>
What invasives do you want to talk about?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-06-2003 15:14: Message edited by: Troy Jones ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
Troy, Pretty good! Then where does all your pro rancher bias come from? You wouldn't be in a ranching family, would you? Glad to see you're raking in all that gummint pork!
Troy Jones
New member
I try to work with others, not demand things from them. There are so many more variables to consider, most wouldn't be able to comprehend. I basically compile or review data, network, coordinate and listen to people bitch for a living. I don't always agree with the rules and regs I have handed down to me, but I have to follow them non the less. No one is here to kiss your ass and give you what ever you want. In regards to the Big Picture, balance is the name of the game. You or the other guy might not get what you want, but something in the middle and it's getting pretty close to that. You have to step back away from your tunnel vision and realize that you are not the only person involved and far from it. For instance, on the pine and ips beetle infestations, I had meetings with BLM, Forest service, State and Federal departments of ag., Sierra Club, local concerned citizens, and various recreational user groups. Everyone wanted something different, they all have an agenda, vested time and interestest in the said property. It's not just about me, me, me and what I want.
We don't have a ranch, but my Grandpa, Uncles and inlaws ranch. Was basically on my own since I was eleven and lived on poached deer and vegetables out of my grandparents root cellar for almost a decade at that time. Don't know a lot about ranching besides the manual labor involve to run one, I have a lot of experience in that. Maybe you can derive something from that.
We don't have a ranch, but my Grandpa, Uncles and inlaws ranch. Was basically on my own since I was eleven and lived on poached deer and vegetables out of my grandparents root cellar for almost a decade at that time. Don't know a lot about ranching besides the manual labor involve to run one, I have a lot of experience in that. Maybe you can derive something from that.
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