Blame the Welfare Rancher??? Why

[BigHornyRam]

"I try to work with others, not demand things from them. There are so many more variables to consider, most wouldn't be able to comprehend."

Good stuff Troy. Do you think IT, Buzz, and Elkgunner can understand this concept?


Resume:
Milked cows before and after High School and during the summer. Continued to work 3 years after high school, mostly on dairies until I saved enough to go to college. 4 1/2 years at UW Madison to earn B. S. in Construction Administration. Work my way through college as a carpenter. Continued as a carpenter for 3 years and then became a self employed wood butcher / home builder in 91. Been self employed ever since and have made a good living at it. Have been on Montana FNAWS board for about 3 years.

Buzz,

Your answer to me about sheep grazing and pasturella in the Gravelies is just one example of your baised negative thinking, that proves you are anti rancher, no matter what kind of job they do. I can bring it back here if you like. You didn't even bother to research before you jumped to conclusions. You never answered my question about Mike Phillips. Care to respond?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-06-2003 19:39: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 4 1/2 years at UW Madison <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Paul, isn't that where Aldo Leopold taught and started the first wildlife ecology program in the country? I'm pretty sure it was in Wisconsin, but not sure about Madison. However, I've heard it is one hell of a party school...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I had meetings with BLM, Forest service, State and Federal departments of ag., Sierra Club, local concerned citizens, and various recreational user groups. Everyone wanted something different, they all have an agenda, vested time and interestest in the said property. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think sportsmen have to make sure to get involved in these type of cooperative groups. I think they ARE the way things will get done that allow the greatest benefit to those involved.

 

[Troy Jones]

We really don't have much of a problem with lack of hunting land, quantity or quality of animals to hunt here in South Dakota. The SD game and fish manage it pretty well. As far as any hunting organizations locally, I don't know of any. You can still get on private land and the public lands available to hunt is staggering. There is BLM, Forest service, waterfowl and game production areas, school lands, corps of engineers, walk-in land, etc... So area sportsman really don't have anything to bitch about with the hunting they have here. I get trophy bucks every year off public and private, if I can do it anyone can. I have nothing to complain about.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul said, "Your answer to me about sheep grazing and pasturella in the Gravelies is just one example of your baised negative thinking, that proves you are anti rancher, no matter what kind of job they do."

What the hell you squawking about?

I dont think its unrealistic to expect pasturella to show up in wild sheep when they are only a few miles away from a very large herd of domestic sheep. I worked all that country including the Greenhorn Mtns and Gravelies for 6-7 months straight one summer (1993) and there were domestic sheep all over the gravelies. I worked primarily on Turners Snowcrest Ranch between 1998-2000, still domestic sheep in the Gravelies.

I think your being overly optimistic and a bit pig-headed to think that the newly transplanted bighorns in the Greenhorns wont become infected. All its going to take is one wild sheep to come into contact, and its going to get ugly, and fast. I know, I know, the wild sheep come from "home body" stock, but if you know anything about wild sheep dispersal and in particular the nomadic ways of younger males...I'd say there is pretty high probability of pasturella showing up in that herd.

I never said I was against the transplant or against the one remaining sheep rancher continuing to graze the Gravelies. What I find pretty damn amusing is that FNAWS and the MTFWP is willing to put up a lot of time, money, etc. knowing the risks right now. My thinking is, if you're going to waste your time, money, and effort, why not take it a step further and just buy that last sheep rancher out? So it costs in the short term some extra $$$, but ensures sheep survival long term...pay money now, or pay by pasturella later. Either way, I'm ok with it, but I better not hear any damned sniveling from FNAWS or the MTFWP when they lose this herd...just like they did with the Anaconda herd, Lima herd, etc. Bottom line is, as long as there is domestic sheep grazing public lands near wild sheep, there wont be many happy endings.

Thathas nothing to do with hating ranchers or biased opinions, but rather with whats happened to wild sheep in Montana, and what will probably happen with the Greenhorn transplant...you cant argue the facts. Oh, and I honestly hope you get to tell me I was wrong...

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

You still haven't answered my question about Mike Phillips. What's the matter?

Paul

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, I have no idea who mike phillips is, and I couldnt care less.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

And you worked for Teddy? And you know all about the wolf reintroduction? You don't know who Mike Phillips is?

Paul

 

[ELKCHSR]

This is a great debate, you guy's keep it up....Extremely interesting and informitive....

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzzy,

Here is a little story to help refresh your memory about who Mike Phillips is. Is everyone that Teddy hires as stupid as Mike?

Paul

Wolf in ''aversion therapy'' on Ted Turner's ranch killed after eating a
calf
Associated Press
Oct. 26, 2001 08:55:00

LIVINGSTON, Mont. - The last of three wolves released after undergoing
livestock "aversion therapy" on Ted Turner's ranch has been killed after it
was caught eating a calf.


Ed Bangs, wolf recovery manager for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service,
confirmed authorities killed the wolf last week after it was found feeding
on the dead animal.

"It was worth a try and that's all we ever said it was," Bangs said of the
aversion program. "But I don't think we taught them a thing."

The three adult male wolves were members of a pack with a history of killing
livestock. They, along with their mother, were captured in May 2000 and
enrolled in an experimental program on Turner's ranch near Gallatin Gateway.

The animals were equipped with electronic collars intended to deliver shocks
if they approached a calf hide or live cow that were in a shared pen.

Officials had hoped the wolves could be trained to avoid livestock, and
might be able to influence other pack members to do the same once released.

The mother died in captivity from liver and kidney failure that authorities
believe was brought on by stress. The other wolves were released last
December.

One drowned when it fell through thin ice. The second was killed last spring
when it was spotted feeding on dead livestock. The final wolf authorities
killed last week was spotted feeding with other wolves on a carcass in a
secluded area of Paradise Valley.

Although disappointed, researchers declined to characterize the experiment
as a failure.

Bangs and Mike Phillips, head biologist for the Turner Endangered Species
Fund, which provided most financing for the project, noted that while in
captivity, the wolves never again approached the calf hide after the first
wolf who attempted to do so was shocked.

Phillips said one lesson learned is that future experiments in such
"aversive conditioning" must be larger.

"We learned it's going to be a lot harder than we thought," Phillips said.

Wolves currently are listed as a "threatened" species under the federal
Endangered Species Act, but officials say their numbers are growing in
Montana, Idaho, Wyoming and they could soon be removed from the list.

Phillips noted that one of the male wolves that died had found a mate and
bred last winter, producing a litter of pups in the spring. He did not say
which of the wolves had bred.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

Here's a clip from another article to give you a little more background on Mike Phillips.

Mike Phillips, the movie star handsome, media savvy biologist who introduced the wolf into Yellowstone Park in '95 spoke to a group of 600 people from 44 states and 24 countries in Duluth, MN. On February 24, 2000. He said the goal of wolf introduction was to drive 30,000 ranchers from public lands. His power point presentation was video taped by the University of Minnesota and the International Wolf Center, Ely, Minnesota reported 2/25/00 on Page A20 of the "Minnesota Star Tribune", and the May edition of "Wyoming Agricultural". Three of "Friends of The Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd" paid $206 to attend. Bob Hanson a retired investment banker memorialized the remarks in affidavit form. Now, fully realizing the implication of making those remarks in a public forum Phillips vehemently denies he made them. Mike Phillips and former Yellowstone National Park Superintendent, Mike Findley now work for Ted Turners' Endangered Species Fund, an organization that vigorously promotes wolves.

Does all of Teddy's employees have similar beliefs and agendas? How about you Buzz, would you like to see all ranchers removed from public lands? I thought Teddy was interested in "good science"? Why would he hire someone with such narrow minded, biased views? Does Teddy share these views, and want to force them on the rest of society? Answer the questions Buzz.

Paul

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

And while were at it let's dicuss the welfare rancher term. Didn't the gumint buy surplus bison hamburger and stew meat last summer for $2.50 a pound and give it to the hungry. At the same time one could buy beef hamburger in the store for $1.50 a pound. Isn't this welfare? Did Teddy benefit from this welfare? He wouldn't be a welfare rancher now would he?

And you are oppose to game farm hunts aren't you Buzz? How did you feel when he was selling bison hunts in a pen last fall? Pretty sporting weren't they. You get on everyone elses case about game farm hunts. Why didn't you jump Teddy?

Looks like Teddy's utopean ranch world isn't quite working out like he bragged it would. He ought to pay more attention to his own ranches, and quit telling everyone else how to run theirs.

Paul

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, I'll try to answer all the questions, if I can remember them all...funny how you avoid them though. But I aint scared.

First off, there were no Endangered or Threatened species to worry about on the Snowcrest or Red Rock ranches that I know of. Thats probably why I never heard much about Mike Phillips. I worked more with Ted and his son Beau and the two Ranch Managers. Findley was hired just about the time I left for Wyoming.

As far as Ted liking wolves and liking them on his land, so what. Its his land, and he can work with Ed Bangs or anyone else to promote whatever he wants to, as long as he stays within the laws of the ESA and the laws of MT. I personally think its pretty cool to see a large landowner who isnt whimpering like a little school girl over the thought of having an endangered species or two on his land. In fact, he's bought property BECAUSE, there's endangered species on it, land that other wealthy individuals or corporations shy away from. He cooperates at great length with the MTFWP, BLM, USFWS, other landowners, etc. In fact, one of his corrals is open to anyone who is pushing their stock to Federal and State leases, and lots of people use it. I've never heard any of his immediate neighbors bitch about his management, I wouldnt either if I caught the "slop over" wildlife that he promotes on his property. I'd have no problem with him as a neighbor, and since I support fully private property rights, more power to Ted.

He provides public hunting opportunities, goes to extra expense and great length to support local economies...Alder, Dillon, etc.

I've also never heard Ted shove his beliefs on land management onto anyone. He sure as hell is entitled to his opinion and I've personally never seen a more well managed bunch of property, both for land health, and wildlife, as well as livestock.

So, morally and ethically, I have no problem saying I worked for him, but I didnt always agree with him...on lots of things and he wasnt afraid to be told he was wrong. But, if you challenge him on management, you better have your ducks in row, the guy isnt an absantee landowner, and he knows a lot more than I thought he would about wildlife, land management, etc.

On the bison...

Personally, I think there is a huge seperation between shooting an animal classified as "livestock" in a pen, than I do with an animal classified as "wildlife". That being said, it aint my bag, and I'd have no problem if it was halted. I also dont have a problem with bison shoots either. Kind of like shooting pheasants on a preserve, big deal if you smack pen-raised ditch parrots.

Yep, you're 100 percent correct on the bison subsidy that Ted gets. He was the largest recipient. He started a bison growers organization similar to the cattlemens association, etc. He also leases all the nearby leases that he can.

The difference is, and I've stated this several times...I'd gladly GIVE landowners leases for free if they just took care of them. Ted takes the same care of his State and Federal leases that he does his own lands...and it shows big-time. What I find the most outrageous, is subsidizing a welfare rancher to trash my public lands and leave 60% of them in poor condition. I dont mind paying for proper stewardship. Since I look out for the average public lands hunter, and not the rich bitch pay for all my hunts type, I think it makes total sense to keep my and your FEDERAL and STATE lands in the best shape they can be in to support as much wildlife as possible. You talk a nice line about "lost" hunting opportunities, I wonder how much opportunity we've all lost at the hands of poor management and overgrazing? I'd guess 60+ years worth, and I've had to pay for it the whole time. I know that 20-30-40 years ago it was no big deal, most ranchers would let you hunt their private land that was in much better shape, so big deal. But thats all changed today, and many private places I once hunted are now leased. As a result I find myself, along with many others, relying more and more on Federal and State lands for hunting opportunities. Since the trend is more and more like this all the time, I believe that its important to have the best quality habitat on public lands. But, thats just me. Others dont seem to have a problem with federal lands grazed to 1" stubble and not able to support a house sparrow, much less any game birds, big-game, etc.

I'll have to go back and see what questions I didnt answer.

Paul, as an aside...I've thought this stuff out, and my agenda is not to force ranchers off leases, force loggers out of the woods, etc. My agenda is really pretty simple, let all those resources be used if they dont damage the resource and as long as wildlife and the health of the land isnt compromised. I honestly dont think requiring our Federal and State lands to be left in good health is asking too much, I really dont.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-08-2003 20:44: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

Nice post buzzy, can't say I disagree with you

I think I will reserve judgement on Ted though, I have ALOT of family up that way that don't like him much.

 

[1_pointer]

Mike- Why don't they like him? Is just because he isn't one of 'them' or that he has done something to piss them off?

I know of locals here that hate it when someone comes in and buys the land and makes it better than theirs.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-09-2003 08:41: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

Buzz=== I think that is what all of us are promoting=== using the resources from the eco in a sustainable fashion.

 

[Michaelr]

1.p

alot of it has to do with locking up alot of ground, that used to be open to the public.

 

[1_pointer]

Thanks Mike, was just curious. I can't blame him as I wouldn't just let anyone hunt land I paid hard earned money for.

 

[Lostagain]

true, 1... the only problem there is the fact that public ground behind the private has no access. tends to piss off folks that can't even get to the public ground.

 

[Nut]

Yes it does....have they thought about ultra-lite's??? I read a article where a guy used one to gain access.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Good replies Buzz,

One question you didn't answer though is why would Teddy hire someone like Mike Phillips with the anti cattle rancher ideals that he has? Could Teddy share some of Mike's ideals? You mentioned that Bison are better suited against preditors then sheep and cattle. Could this be why Teddy is so interested in wolves?

Paul