Blame the Welfare Rancher??? Why

[Bambistew]

Ok, so most of you guys are against welfare ranching... Why the hatred?

Why is the hatred not directed at the Forest service and BLM. Aren't they the ones that dictate what happens with the grazing permits??? Aren't the ranchers just doing what they are alowd to do???

If not I would like some examples.

Lets put it this way. If you ran a business, wouldn't you try to make as much money as you can with the least amount of overhead? The cost that they pay for their aloments may be a sham, but do the ranchers really deserve all the blame or any at all?

 

[Bullhound]

Bambistew,

That's not fair! Your not supposed to ask any questions that make sense!

The people around here that absolutely hate and badmouth the "welfare rancher" don't seem to be able to control their hatred. The approach doesn't appear to be fueled by any common sense. By this I mean that they do not appear to be willing to accept any thing less than the absolute death or destruction of any rancher who has a gov lease. It doesn't appear that any sort of change in the ranchers operations, or the system, would be good enough.

Kinda funny, I happen to agree with a good portion of the ideas and concepts of some of these guys (like Ithaca, Elkgunner, etc.) but they go so far overboard with the persecution of others that it makes you feel like you should be on the opposing side of an issue.

Elk and IT, I didn't really mean that I agree with ANYTHING you say!

 

[cjcj]

hello bambistew we don`t all hate the welfare rancher`s i love their product`s and low low prices, you can`t BEAT their MEAT!

 

[BbarC]

Hell , lets just shut all them lousy ranchers down!!Maybe then these guys would enjoy paying $$20-$30 per pound for their beef! Or better yet maybe we could import more of that Argentine beef and send more of our money to our "friends" down there. Or even better yet maybe we could import them some of that British mad cow beef!! OR reckon these guys are all VEGGIES?? Ol Bob

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-02-2003 12:57: Message edited by: BbarC ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

I have not problem with public lands ranching as long as it is not degrading the land. Yes, the BLM and USFS are to blame for some things, but other times it is the rancher is is just flat out breaking the rules. BLM and USFS managers are often constrained from getting much done because of red tape, law suits, funding issues, or conflict with other agency projects.

 

[Deerslayer]

Bambistew says...."Aren't the ranchers just doing what they are alowd to do???"

Yup.......just as the crack head, drug dealing blacks that are milking the system in my old hometown in La are doing.........it ain't their fault,.....their just "working it". They should not be held accountable for drawing welfare and dealing crack on the side....dems homeboys jus makin' it.....doin' whats they gotta to get buy.......no diffurt in da west.....jus' lighter skin and a litle betta accent.

 

[Troy Jones]

Cry Babies! That's all some of these guys are on this site. Smart, maybe, common sense, not much if at all. I do have some ranchers here I would like to introduce them to.

 

[BuzzH]

BbarC said, "Maybe then these guys would enjoy paying $$20-$30 per pound for their beef!"

What a crock of shit that is.

Maybe if all the grazing leases were taken away, the price of beef would fetch a fair market value for the producers. One of the reasons the beef market is so crappy most of the time is because the market is flooded. I feel bad for the producers who have to compete with some jerk-ass who has a federal lease. The federal lands welfare ranchers get their leases at 1/10 -1/20th the price than that of the rancher who has to lease private lands. Thats a fair market system? One guy gets his lease for 1.35 AUM because he's at the public lands welfare trough, and another guy has to pay $10-$20 AUM because he pays for a private lease?

Its such a ridiculous system, its no wonder its going by the wayside, and none to soon either.

There is no way that beef prices would ever get even close to "$25-30/lb" if welfare ranchers are restricted or shut down. That will happen about the same time 'Ol BobbarC makes his first million at the Vegas casinos.

Besides all that, for Christ sake, isnt this a hunting board? A bunch of hunters are worrying about beef prices when they own guns and bullets?

 

[Bambistew]

How can you compare crack heads to ranchers? I live in a city full of em and I can't see the comparison...

I still don't see why it’s the ranchers’ fault. Shouldn't the Forest Service, and BLM be held accountable for the damages, since the mandate the grazing privileges??? It seems to me like the haters are after the wrong crowd.

So, if they ranchers had to pay a fair price then would that make the haters feel better? I don't have a problem with the ranchers grazing on public land either, as long as the FS and BLM does their job of controlling grazing pressure.

I don't understand why it cost the forest service and BLM so much to maintain these areas. What do they have to do? The ranchers maintain the fences, water, etc.

I can understand how the leases on the BLM could get by unchecked since they could be surrounded by private property... But aren’t most forest leases easily accessed?

Ivan

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I still don't see why it’s the ranchers’ fault. Shouldn't the Forest Service, and BLM be held accountable for the damages, since the mandate the grazing privileges??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, they should. But, the system makes it VERY hard for some changes to be made or even certain laws be enforced. Often the managers hands are tied. In recent times, the courts have mandated many grazing allotments numbers. In some cases it is the ranchers fault, by breaking the laws mandated. Kinda like a driver who causes a fatal accident being at fault and not the state government who mandates the laws.

In working for the BLM for only a short time, the problem isn't with the laws it's with the enforcement.

The situation/system is much more complicated/convoluted than I imagined.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-03-2003 09:42: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]</font>

 

[BbarC]

Mr Buzzard, do you have any idea of what kind of capital investment a rancher has that is at risk whether he private leases or BLM leases. It doesnt vary much in either case. The main money is in stock and equipment. Do you have any of your own capital investment at risk in your job or business?? If so you might understand a business man just trying to make a living. Or are you own the government "sugar tit" yourself??
Ah yes Vegas, ain't gonna get rich there, but alway have a good time and never risk more than I can afford to lose. The slot gods are usually kind to me though. Ol Bob

 

[BuzzH]

BbarC, with your lack of understanding of basic economics, (supply and demand, profit margins, etc.), I find it funny that you feel confident handing out advice on the subject.

You still didnt answer the first question though:

How can a private land operator compete with a welfare rancher when the WF rancher pays 1/10-1/20 the price to feed his livestock on the public lands leases?

Until you answer that, the discussion is over.

 

[BbarC]

yep Buzz, do understand economics , have owned 10 retail business[ all succesful] plus have been am [of sorts] a rancher.Why do you guys begrudge a fellow for trying to make a living and turning a profit??????????Do understand govmint and private leases. Also on private leases do know that they are grazed much more intensely [more animal units per acre] than govmint leases. Therefore cost is not much different per animal on either. You didnt aqnswer whether you are on govmint "sugar tit", suspect you are!! Lighten up a little!!! Ol Bob

 

[BuzzH]

BbarC said, "Also on private leases do know that they are grazed much more intensely [more animal units per acre] than govmint leases. Therefore cost is not much different per animal on either."

I'd like to see some proof of that...

The reason that the private is grazed more intensly is because the private hasnt had the living shit grazed out of it and abused for 50-60 years.

Grazing intensity is omly part of a grazing scheme. Short duration high intensity grazing can be a good thing.

But, trying to compare private leases to public leases based solely on grazing intensity is weak, real weak.

The fact remains that the Welfare Rancher is hurting other ranchers. They arent paying even close to the same fees for grazing a like number of cattle. Thats were the comparison is real, thats what forces prices down, thats what forces the private land rancher to raise more and more cattle to show a profit, he has to compete with his subsidized competition.

Come on Bob, an old hand with all the answers and all the knowledge shouldnt have to be told any of that...pretty basic stuff.

Oh, and no I aint on the government "sugar tit".

My guess is, you couldnt and wouldnt do my "sugar tit" government job...for all kinds of reasons. One of which is having to listen to stupid freaking Texans talk about how "easy" it is to work for the Government. If its such a good deal Bob, jump on board, we're hiring.

I also would guess you recieve plenty of government handouts, tax breaks, etc. for owning your own business. Dont whine too much about the government gravy train, your hand is in the cookie jar...bigtime.

Your welcome.

 

[BbarC]

Yep had it figured you worked for uncle sugar. Ain't never been no hand outs or subsidies taken here, just pay taxes so you can draw your wages. In the gun business ol uncle is breathing down your neck all the time requiring tons of bs paperwork. He never yet paid me 'not to sell guns or subsidized that in any way. YOUR BOSS tries his best to shut me down through intense regulations and BS laws most of the time.
By the way what makes you smarter than anyone else round here??????Been taking night courses from Ithaca??? Gonna get your MA in "know it all" and BS in "like to argue?? Need a few real life experiences before you know much at all. Off and gone!! Ol Bob

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-03-2003 13:40: Message edited by: BbarC ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Boy ol' Bob you sure are a touchy ingnorant Texan arent you?

I like the nice touch with all the "aint no's" etc. really makes you sound intelligent.

If thats what all that " real life experience" teaches a person...well I think I'll pass.

If the gun business is too much for you, quit. No money in it, a pain in your ass, whatever...just dont do it. Theres sugar tit jobs out there that are calling your name.

AINT NO REASON to be miserable with your work.

Hey Bob, answer a question truthfully...how much of your income do you claim, in particular cash transactions....actually no need to reply, I know the answer.

Thanks for ripping off the public, hypocrit.

I know your type, everyone else should pay taxes but 'ol Bob.

I've always found the people who bitch the most about taxes and jobs, work less and pay less in taxes than the average...I bet you're no different.

No hard feelings Bob, I actually think you're a decent guy, just in denial and a little uninformed.

Have a good 4th.

Off to see the Rockies kick the crap outa the Diamond Backs.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-03-2003 14:03: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Deerslayer]

Bambi says...."How can you compare crack heads to ranchers? I live in a city full of em and I can't see the comparison..."


Actually, I know at least couple of ranchers who themselve are crackheads.

What you need to understand is the label "rancher" does not make one above or better than anyone else. They are still individuals.....some good, some bad....who happen to be in the same business. Some fell into it, some bought into it, all chose to do it. Some do it better than others.....and some are just two-bit drunks and wine-os trying to drink away an inheritance.

The comparison between crack-heads and "welfare ranchers" is simple......both are suckling on the juicy fat tit of the system.

The distinction should be made between "ranchers" and "welfare ranchers".....wouldn't want to be labeled a hater

......not a hater.........just a realist.

 

[Troy Jones]

Far from a realist, more like tunnel vison. Intelligent decisions come from the understanding of both sides of a conflict.

Questions I have for the info Nazi's;

*How much BLM in the US compared to private?

*How much of that BLM is actually grazed?

Here in South Dakota it really doesn't matter. Less than 3% is Fed land and according to the Belle Fourche field office only 20% of that is on grazing permits. So a little over a half of one percent of SD land is even grazed. How does that affect wildlife or cattle prices? Not much if at all.

The dynamics behind low cattle prices also has little or nothing to do with any BLM grazing per say. The free trade agreement and the big three packing companies and price fixing can be thanked for that.

Just wondering Buzz, how old are you, where were you raised, how long have you worked for the feds, what other jobs you've had and what vocational credentials do you have?

 

[Oak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Off to see the Rockies kick the crap outa the Diamond Backs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, that's not what I saw when I was there. I kept my eye out for you, but that was a pretty big crowd. You didn't get pulled over on the way home, did you?

Oak

 

[Ithaca 37]

Bambi, I don't waste any energy hating the welfare ranchers, but I have no respect for most of them and I sure enjoy helping reveal how hypocritical, sleazy, arrogant, uninformed, actually stupid, and destructive many of them are. We've gone over it about a thousand times here in SI, but here's a few comments on your opening post:

"Why is the hatred not directed at the Forest service and BLM."

Some animosity is directed at them when they don't enforce the law, or actually break it themselves (usually because they're in cahoots with the resource extraction industry and welfare ranchers), but most of the time it's the welfare ranchers who are breaking the law. Do you blame the police when somebody robs a bank?

The examples of the welfare ranchers taking advantage of their grazing leases, or breaking the law, are so numerous that individuals and organizations can pick only the sure winners to sue them on. That's why they rarely lose a case.

Overall, though, those welfare hypocrits claim to be independant Marlboro Men types who love the land they make a living from, they despise the regulatory agencies, they whine incessantly about not being allowed to do what they want, all the while living off the taxpayers.

Just the fact that over 60% of all BLM is in poor condition due to overgrazing, and 85% of the riparian zones (the most critical wildlife habitat) are in poor condition due to overgrazing should be enough for any rational person to realize there is an overwhelming lack of respect for our land.

Here's what it all comes down to for me, though. I love to hunt and fish. The welfare ranchers destroy fish and wildlife habitat and have had a very severe negative effect on my hunting, fishing, and recreational enjoyment. Not just mine, but everybody's.

You and I are the owners of the Federal land. Think of yourself as the landlord. You give a wonderful deal to your renters, so good that they would never be able to make a living without it. They take advantage of you every way they can and actually cause huge damage to your property while they're doing it. So much damage that the wildlife you enjoy seeing can't live there. They deface and vandalize your property.

I have almost a religous attitude about hunting, fishing and our public land. I want it respected and revered. I don't mind at all when people use it, as long as they respect it and do no harm to it, and when they respect the other users. It can be used, even by the resource extraction industry and ranchers, in ways that are not harmful and destructive---even in ways that are beneficial to us all. Defacing and vandalizing it by overgrazing and extracting resources in destructive ways is just as offensive to me as someone vandalizing and defacing the Washington Monument or Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It's especially offensive when they're receiving subsidies (welfare) while doing it.

Start thinking of public land as YOUR LAND and see how you feel about it.

I also am appalled that anyone who loves to hunt and fish on public land would defend those vandals, and say they just need more time to change their ways.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-04-2003 13:05: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>