A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

[Hunting Wife]

My takeaway from this thread is that no matter what, there will always be people who can’t or won’t deal with the discomfort of introspection. However, I try hard to be an optimist because really, what’s the alternative in times like these? It seems like there’s a much larger number of thoughtful individuals in the population who care and are willing to try, even if they don’t fully comprehend the problem, even if they’ll make mistakes along the way, even if it’s confusing and uncomfortable subject matter. No one is alone in that. I know what my experiences are, and some of the experiences of my family members. But I don’t and won’t pretend to have a clue of what it’s like to live as a black person in America, for example. I freely admit I am completely ignorant of many cultural or historic references and connotations that are offensive, simply because I don’t come from a place where I ever encountered that stuff. There are plenty of times I’m confused by a term or phrase I heard for the first time only after some event made it front page news, and I have to spend some time Googling to figure it out what it means and why it’s offensive. I don’t fully comprehend the depth of discrimination in our social systems, but the more I try to learn about it the easier it becomes to see. I mean let’s be fair, white guys don’t corner the market on ignorance. Everyone has their biases and blind spots. We all have room for improvement somewhere, but we have to be willing to try.

 

[Bigjay73]

Do we love America? Is America stronger, and better, or weaker and worse off, if every citizen feels the same amount of pride, belonging, and safety as the person next to them? I don't see how you can be a patriotic person, and not die inside knowing that some of your fellow countrymen/ women are made to feel less than equal due to the amount of pigmentationin their skin.

 

[Europe]

Although I have had several requests to respond, out of respect for Big Fin I have not. And in doing so now I will stay away from some subjects that are connected to our current social situation. I have spoken to him and he has been very gracious and honest as to what would ( or should ) work on the forum and what might not.

Those on the forum who know me personally are aware that we had children of color in our family. Our natural born children were white as am I and their father. But when life presented us with the opportunity we worked with foster children. Most came and went when their parents, or one of their parents, got their live together enough to take care of them. But we also adopted and those we adopted were children of color. So I saw first hand how a child was treated by society, in general ,compared to another. We did find that our decision to do this was not only beneficial to those children in need, but our natural born children as well. Being raised together certainly made them, regardless of color, better adults, as stereotyping went out the door pretty quickly.

Two things happen by adopting children of color. One it helped those children escape the bad situation they found themselves in, because of poor choices their parents had made. And two, our natural born children saw people of color differently and therefore were more understanding and accepting in their adult live. One of our natural born children and one of our adopted children have continued to help foster children.

History. In the 1940's in Arizona there were still signs saying "no colored allowed after dark" separate schools, churches,neighborhoods, etc. So has things improved. YES. Everybody says we have to do better and that is true, in general, in my opinion. However, in todays society any man or woman of any race, who wants it bad enough can obtain an education and secure a job in the filed of their choice.

I am sorry that your great great great grandmother was a slave. I have relatives who were Jewish with first hand knowledge of the Holocaust . so does society owe me something as a descent of someone from that time. NO! My husband and I refused to allow any of our children play the "poor me" card. Race or gender.

Gender. Let me play devils advocate on this one. some women walk around with body parts on display and then complain when someone says something they dont like. I am sure many women will disagree with me but IMHO if you want to be treated like a lady, then act like a lady. Another example that I dont understand: My son was going into a grocery store and a 30 something woman was right behind him. He opened the door and stood aside so she could enter, just as his father taught him to do. she said "you dint think I am capable of opening the door ?" To me, her response was unnecessary regardless of whether or not she was a card carrying feminist.

This is quite different however than the harassment Panda Bear experienced when guiding. My hats off to her, Hunting Wife, Mkelkhuntress and Randi. All four of these ladies are true outdoors women and I feel so fortunate to have know women like them. My "new" bucket list includes getting to the part of Montana that borders N. Dakota and Canada and enjoying some fine home made wine (-:

Change what you can, accept what you can not change and have the wisdom to know the difference.

Big Fin. I stayed away from religion, politics, and people who actually like the band Kiss and the "Deadheads" who for those that are to young to know. It was a group of young men and women who followed the Grateful Dead band from concert to concert to concert. From memory usually in a VW van and there were alway something that looked like smoke exiting the windows. Any prior "Deadheads" here on Hunt Talk ? (-:

 

[Duck-Slayer]

Although I have had several requests to respond, out of respect for Big Fin I have not. And in doing so now I will stay away from some subjects that are connected to our current social situation. I have spoken to him and he has been very gracious and honest as to what would ( or should ) work on the forum and what might not.

Those on the forum who know me personally are aware that we had children of color in our family. Our natural born children were white as am I and their father. But when life presented us with the opportunity we worked with foster children. Most came and went when their parents, or one of their parents, got their live together enough to take care of them. But we also adopted and those we adopted were children of color. So I saw first hand how a child was treated by society, in general ,compared to another. We did find that our decision to do this was not only beneficial to those children in need, but our natural born children as well. Being raised together certainly made them, regardless of color, better adults, as stereotyping went out the door pretty quickly.

Two things happen by adopting children of color. One it helped those children escape the bad situation they found themselves in, because of poor choices their parents had made. And two, our natural born children saw people of color differently and therefore were more understanding and accepting in their adult live. One of our natural born children and one of our adopted children have continued to help foster children.

History. In the 1940's in Arizona there were still signs saying "no colored allowed after dark" separate schools, churches,neighborhoods, etc. So has things improved. YES. Everybody says we have to do better and that is true, in general, in my opinion. However, in todays society any man or woman of any race, who wants it bad enough can obtain an education and secure a job in the filed of their choice.

I am sorry that your great great great grandmother was a slave. I have relatives who were Jewish with first hand knowledge of the Holocaust . so does society owe me something as a descent of someone from that time. NO! My husband and I refused to allow any of our children play the "poor me" card. Race or gender.

Gender. Let me play devils advocate on this one. some women walk around with body parts on display and then complain when someone says something they dont like. I am sure many women will disagree with me but IMHO if you want to be treated like a lady, then act like a lady. Another example that I dont understand: My son was going into a grocery store and a 30 something woman was right behind him. He opened the door and stood aside so she could enter, just as his father taught him to do. she said "you dint think I am capable of opening the door ?" To me, her response was unnecessary regardless of whether or not she was a card carrying feminist.

This is quite different however than the harassment Panda Bear experienced when guiding. My hats off to her, Hunting Wife, Mkelkhuntress and Randi. All four of these ladies are true outdoors women and I feel so fortunate to have know women like them. My "new" bucket list includes getting to the part of Montana that borders N. Dakota and Canada and enjoying some fine home made wine (-:

Change what you can, accept what you can not change and have the wisdom to know the difference.

Big Fin. I stayed away from religion, politics, and people who actually like the band Kiss and the "Deadheads" who for those that are to young to know. It was a group of young men and women who followed the Grateful Dead band from concert to concert to concert. From memory usually in a VW van and there were alway something that looked like smoke exiting the windows. Any prior "Deadheads" here on Hunt Talk ? (-:

Spoken well! Maybe I should just PM you and have you thoughtfully write it out... agreed with everything you said.
Matt

 

[Dave N]

I stayed away from religion, politics, and people who actually like the band Kiss

Dang, what's guy gotta do around here to make any friends?

 

[Irrelevant]

There’s already an alternative to calling the police - High Country News

A 31-year-old program in Eugene, Oregon, is a model in de-escalating situations that could end with law enforcement violence.

www.hcn.org

This type of alternative was/is completely foreign to me.

 

[Jmnhunter]

Man, that article was depressing to read, but the trolls and toxicity of social media will always be there. What is really sad is that "outdoors people" would actually do that to someone else while enjoying the outdoors; especially since i believe 95% of us who enjoy the outdoors are positive people and those that actually care what other people's skin looks like, well, I bet they never smile or have joy in which you get when you are true outdoors person

 

[azelkhntr]

Went to WM yesterday to get some fishing tackle and 30:06 is less than $20 a box so picked up 2. JSP are my preference for max expansion. BLM is now bussing agitators into small towns across the country and weren’t well received in Bethel, Ohio pop. 2,800. Also the mob was attempting to tear down a public statue in Albuquerque and an agitator was justly shot by a defender. Looks like the bugaloo is about to begin. And this year it grows hot . I’d say conservatives in this country have had enough and BLM-antifa have just about run out their string. This isn’t about racism now it’s about power.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Went to WM yesterday to get some fishing tackle and 30:06 is less than $20 a box so picked up 2. JSP are my preference for max expansion. BLM is now bussing agitators into small towns across the country and weren’t well received in Bethel, Ohio pop. 2,800. Also the mob was attempting to tear down a public statue in Albuquerque and an agitator was justly shot. Looks like the bugaloo is about to begin. And this year it grows hot . I’d say conservatives in this country have had enough and BLM-antifa have just about run out their string. This isn’t about racism now it’s about power.

 

[thusby]

Just don't be an a-hole and don't tolerate a-holes. Lesson adjourned.

 

[madplume]

As a Blackfeet man I have experienced racism throughout my life. I have many opinions on the current situation our nation is going through as well as racism in general, but I just wanted to say that I very much appreciate the overall positivity and open mindedness on this site. Sure there are a few bad eggs but that's unavoidable. So again thank you, continue to be open minded, and if you want to discuss anything with me I am more than willing to do so.

 

[Randi]

It will be interesting to see how different segments of our population react to the young black man deliberately knocking over a 92 year old white woman--looking back and watching her fall into a fire hydrant and he just kept walking

will BLM as a group condemn this ? Will any group of white people protest ? will AARP form any type of protest stating that old people lives matter. ?

The video of Floyd upset me because in my view his death was unnecessary . Just like the video of the old woman being pushed down, it was uncalled for.

I wonder if the policeman that was responsible for Floyd's death feels remorse. I wonder if the man who was responsible for deliberately knocking her over for no reason feels remorse

America the Beautiful is sometimes not so beautiful, but I would not want to live anywhere else

 

[Sytes]

Appreciate your comment, Randi. Valuable reflection.

On that note:

I don't believe those, "rioting" really care for life or the loss of... race, be it some b.s., Black Lives Matter. All Lives Matter, this is certain.

Deadly unrest: Here are the people who have died amid George Floyd protests across US

Among those killed as protests over the death of George Floyd have roiled American cities in the past week are a retired police captain, a beloved owner of a barbecue restaurant, and a former star football player known as “Mr. Indianapolis."

fox6now.com

 

[Westxhunter]

That was great article. Just a little background. I'm what many would consider hispanic. My great great grandmother was a "Houston" (Juanita Houston) and I have family that back in the day fought with Pancho Villa. So my background is super mixed. That being said, I was born in Texas and consider myself a Texan First, and an American second. Haha. Just kidding. I'm American through and through. I love Texas though, like like anyone that lives here. This article is one of the reasons I've rarely traveled east of the 'ole miss. I have lived in Florida for an internship and also been to many of the western states. Perhaps i'm just a little naive and it was happening behind my back as well. My size may play a little into this, lol. In addition. I love guns, America, Jesus, country music, rock and roll, and even the Dropkick Murhpys. Everything I love doing is not a "mexican" thing. Even some of my friends say that i'm not really mexican. I tell them NO. I'm American.

Although I have not been on the receiving end of what this article speaks of, I can say that i'm always on the defense because of it. I've not met many outdoorsmen/women who were not 100% kind and welcoming when on the trail. When I traveled the panhandle of Texas for work, I 100% expected to be treated as a second class citizen. This was not the case. Anyone who's been to Texas may have seen an experienced our hospitality. I believe wholeheartedly that 95+% of America is not racist and there are only a few small pockets where this still exists. Yes, even in Texas.

Here's my .02 take it for what it is. Although this man was NOT an Angel. He did not deserve to die the way he did. Things need to change. There is an underlying problem that should be addressed. I have friends in Law enforcement and they all agree that continuing education would be a great step forward. This is a time for reflection on who we are and what we want to be. We're all Americans first and should treat each other the same. In relation to the media, they can put a certain spin on things for their own benefit. Get all the information you can, analyze it, and make your own decision.

I love America, I love being a Texan, and I will always treat everyone as such.

 

[HSi-ESi]

I have been very impressed with how this thread has progressed.

A contribution that I may have is that I believe that "small things" build over time. It can be references to ethnicity, race, sex, etc that should not be ignored. Young people, especially those learning the English language really pick up on nuances that we have begun to overlook with familiarity.

Examples. One contractor friend was doing some work on our house (10ish years ago) and was excavating for an extended foundation. He was encountering many large rocks and referred to them as "ni&&3r-heads". I did explain that was not cool around my kids (or me) - and they had limited contact anyway - but I am sure that colloquialism is said on a daily basis.

Another, closer to me - relates to when our children were little. I did travel more than average, so at times my wife was a "single-mom" at home (I say this lightly, because we had no financial worries, etc) - but she did deal with more than I on a regular basis. So when I was home, I took more of a primary role with the kids. If we went out to dinner - and the kids were upset, needed a diaper change or help eating - I took the lead because I knew my wife needed a break. She would have done the same if the roles were reversed - but she often got "complimented" on how wonderful of a Dad I was. No one mentioned how wonderful of a Mom she was - it was just that I did more than traditionally expected (which is still less than she did on a daily basis). Over time though, the compliments became more of a lack of validity for her. Which she knew was not true, but nonetheless - it hit home.

I can only imagine the subtle language that others go through on a daily basis. I have been listening, learning and instructing my kids to do the same. I watch body language - especially in business meetings - but also throughout a normal day-to-day interaction with people. This doesn't cost anything to me - but I realize that small changes are necessary.

I'm not saying it is a solution, but it is a contribution that we can all do.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Aunt jemima is changing its logo and name. The hard changes needed keep on coming!

Sarcasm? Yea by the bucket.

 

[thusby]

Aunt jemima is changing its logo and name. The hard changes needed keep on coming!

Sarcasm? Yea by the bucket.

Forget the name change, that sugar water needs to be pulled from the shelves altogether!

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Forget the name change, that sugar water needs to be pulled from the shelves altogether!

Agreed...give me the real stuff man!!!

 

[Northwoods Labs]

Hmmm. Most instances I've witnessed in my life were not quite that simple for the folks involved. My experiences with minorities were with tribal families.

Family in my home town that I grew up with. Seven kids. White father and Ojibwe mother who got the chit kicked out of her on a regular basis. Dad is a regular at the pubs and mother is seldom seen. Mom dies tragically in her early forties from a cause that most locals say was easily treatable if the old man had not pissed away all the family's money on booze and mom could have been allowed even basic medical care.

When mom dies, the two oldest brothers, 16 and 17, move back to the reservation with distant family. The only daughter, all of 13 at the time, tries to raise the four younger brothers, ages 12, 11, 7, and 4. The youngest, not yet old enough to be in the public school vaccination program, gets polio at a time when the rest of the world only heard old stories about polio. Such is life when you can't afford health care. What they have for food is scarce and mostly due to the generosity of neighbors and churches. Clothing was an assortment of hand-me-downs we'd all seen other kids in town wearing in years past. If not for subsidized school meals, I'm not sure what they would have gotten to eat.

Eventually, the burden is too heavy. The sister and her next-in-line brother cannot carry the load any longer. After three years of valiant effort, the family is broken up by concerned state officials and dispersed; the sister and two brothers back to the reservation with distant family, one brother stays with a local white family, and the youngest to a local foster family who can help with his polio complications.

The four brothers were all within two years older or five years younger than me. Only two of them are still alive as I type this, with the 12 and 11 year-old later dying in their life prime and joining one of their older brothers, the 16 year-old, who suffered the same fate. Out of a family of seven, all mostly my age, three have already died and one lives a very difficult life due to complications of polio that was easily preventable.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that the only thing holding those kids back was "themselves and the choices they made." Those kids were dealt a cruel hand that shouldered them with an unimaginable burden. It wasn't their choice for the old man to knock the hell out of mom whenever he got sauced down at the pub. It wasn't their choice to have mom die at a young age. It wasn't their choice to live in poverty beyond what any of us can imagine. I know this happens on reservations and with tribal families more than we care to admit. I suspect the urban communities stricken with generational poverty have a painful abundance of similar examples.

Those consequences had a great bearing on what future those kids could make for themselves. It would be nice if the world was as simple as you state. At least in my experience, such is not the case.

EDIT - If you want to read a remarkably painful non-fiction story written by one of those brothers mentioned above, one who somehow found his way forward, you can buy his book on Amazon at this link - https://amzn.to/3d1yxYl

Well said Randy, the community I live in is likely very similar to the one you grew up in. So many kids with such tremendous challenges, many cases just too much to overcome. It has nothing to do with "choices" they made

 

[Gr8bawana]

Forget the name change, that sugar water needs to be pulled from the shelves altogether!

That's funny! We tried some "genuine" maple syrup once and we didn't like it. Guess we're just used to sugar water and corn syrup because we didn't find the real stuff flavorful or sweet enough.