A counter to the Bundy sympathies

[shoots-straight]

I did. I was asking the question in general terms. I do try hard.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Based on what I have read and heard, I think both sides share the blame for how this escalated. I am not saying Bundy had some right to graze his cattle, but it seems like the Feds could have handled this in a manner that wouldn't have put so many people at risk. The tactics used by both sides were wreckless IMO.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Based on what I have read and heard, I think both sides share the blame for how this escalated. I am not saying Bundy had some right to graze his cattle, but it seems like the Feds could have handled this in a manner that wouldn't have put so many people at risk. The tactics used by both sides were wreckless IMO.

There is inherent risk in executing any court order. How could they have done it differently?

 

[BuzzH]

JLS,

Good points you made all of them.

In particular about the "jackbooted" BLM LEO's. I guess everyone expects the BLM, NPS, USFS LEO's to carry fly swatters instead of firearms.

I spend around 150 days a year in my official duties in the field. If I was allowed to carry, I would...and its not because I run into bears, lions, etc. I've seen a lot of strange people and a lot of strange things in the last 15 years out in the sticks. Drug runners near the border, illegals near the border, found a meth lab in Idaho, a very suspicious plane "crash" on the Arizona Strip, hostile landowners, you name it. Several of my co-workers have found pot farms, etc. Since I've worked for the FS, theres been several FS employees killed by whacko's out in the sticks, many more have been assaulted.

The thing about stumbling onto these situations out in the sticks is...the calvary aint coming anytime soon. In my situation, its myself and a work partner. Yeah, we carry cell phones, sat phones, and spots, but many of the places we work are hours away from any kind of support.

When an LEO is in remote areas on NF and BLM lands, they absolutely need to have the best equipment that money can buy, including the best in firearms.

Those that have to scratch their heads wondering why the BLM/FS LEO's need firearms, K9 units, etc., sure arent putting much thought into it.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

There is inherent risk in executing any court order. How could they have done it differently?

As I mentioned, I wasn't there, I don't know what the initial encounters looked or sounded like, and you don't either. I do know this doesn't excuse them of their responsibility to protect the Bundys as well as their own agents. I also know that their action played at least some part in escalating this situation; which now will shape every other situation like this, because all of the media outlets and political hacks will come out of the woodwork and try and inflame the public. Maybe they could have sent the local sheriff or game warden to talk to them and work out a deal that wouldn't have spiraled out of control. The annoyance in all of this is that over the weekend I have been trying to understand what happened here, and when I search for it all I get is the viewpoint of both extreme sides, and no facts whatsoever. The only thing I know for sure is the Bundys broke the law, the feds came in, and all of a sudden there are militias and a media fiasco.

 

[BuzzH]

Really?

Pretty easy to figure out, IMO.

A non-compliant, law breaking arsehole hiding behind a bunch of paper patriots.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

As I mentioned, I wasn't there, I don't know what the initial encounters looked or sounded like, and you don't either. I do know this doesn't excuse them of their responsibility to protect the Bundys as well as their own agents. I also know that their action played at least some part in escalating this situation; which now will shape every other situation like this, because all of the media outlets and political hacks will come out of the woodwork and try and inflame the public. Maybe they could have sent the local sheriff or game warden to talk to them and work out a deal that wouldn't have spiraled out of control. The annoyance in all of this is that over the weekend I have been trying to understand what happened here, and when I search for it all I get is the viewpoint of both extreme sides, and no facts whatsoever. The only thing I know for sure is the Bundys broke the law, the feds came in, and all of a sudden there are militias and a media fiasco.

This was a federal court order, therefore the local sheriff or a state game warden would have no jurisdiction or legal authority to enforce the order. That would be like having the Department of Transportation negotiate your speeding ticket. They can't.

It's federal land, a federal grazing contract, that falls into federal court when there is a compliance issue. When it can't be resolved after 20 some years, I think the odds of working out a deal are about the same as finding a unicorn.

A court order has absolutely no teeth or value whatsoever if it is not enforced. If you had tenants you were trying to evict from a rental house, what course of action would you take? What if after 10 or 20 years they were STILL there? Would you want the county sheriff to come in and forceably evict them (which they have done and will continue to do) based on a the court order, or would you like them to hold hands and "negotiate"?

Sorry, but sometimes you have to fish or cut bait.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

When an LEO is in remote areas on NF and BLM lands, they absolutely need to have the best equipment that money can buy, including the best in firearms.

Those that have to scratch their heads wondering why the BLM/FS LEO's need firearms, K9 units, etc., sure arent putting much thought into it.

No arguements here, Buzz, but it is how they are used. We use a term in the military called escalation of force, and they might have used it, but I have yet to get a accounting of the situation that seems like it isn't biased in one way or the other.

 

[BuzzH]

Did you happen to see the video?

The Bundy paper patriots are the ones that escalated the situation. I would have went through 2 gallons of pepper spray, enough electricity to cause a power surge at Caesars Palace in Vegas, and a gross of zip ties...for starters.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

MH---Haven't you watched the videos of all the idiots getting in the face of the BLM employees who were just standing there trying to remain calm and collected on the road where the BLM trucks were trying to move?. Some of them got tasered when it appeared they were physically attacking armed BLM personnel---NOT TOO SMART! I imagine the dogs bit several of them too when they rushed right up into the face of their handlers that were just standing there trying to protect the workers in the trucks. The whole thing was brought on by that asshat Bundy and they ought to arrest his ass and throw him in the slammer with the rest of his family and some of those leaders for inciting a riot. It will be interesting to see what the BLM does next after pulling back before there was bloodshed from all these jackasses that don't have even any idea what caused the BLM to do that roundup and are just there because they hate all aspects of the Government. IMHO Bundy is damn lucky they didn't just go in and shoot all his fuggin cows after being given 20 years to vacate the property and owing the taxpayers over one million clams!!!!

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Like I mentioned initially, I think the bundys were just as wrong, but what are going to be the long term consequences of the actions of both sides? How much more often are we going to see militias, and the like, subverting the legal efforts of LE? The BLM lost this round, but even if they would have succeded, would it have been a loss at the strategic level because of the precedence set? In this case enforcing the laws turned inflamatory, regardless of who was at fault.

I have not watched the videos, I probably should. I guess my point was what drew the the militias, oathkeepers, etc to the ranch? Why did it have to get escalated to the point where tasing, dogs, snipers, swat type agents were neccessary? Did the BLM have some indication before they showed up that they were going to be met in a hostile manner? I have been in may fair share of armed conflict and understand the nuances of how you present yourself and how it can change the tone of the encounter.

 

[Southwind]

What were the restrictions imposed on the ranchers in 93 concerning the desert tortoise that made Bundy stop paying and nullify his grazing contract? Or was that just an excuse to stop paying?

Also, is there any truth that Harry Reid's son is pushing for a wind farm on this same ground? I'm not sure how that would make a difference anyway seeing how every wind farm I know of in Kansas have cattle grazing on that same property.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Just to be perfectly clear, I am not contesting that the BLM had a job to do and definately needed to enforce the law, otherwise what is the point of it. I would only question if they took every possible step to avoid this conflict, and I pray it doesn't lead to more inflamitory encounter like this.

The bottom line is the Bundys were wrong, and I am sickened by the underhanded efforts they used to undermine the law.

 

[RobG]

Background, albeit HCN
http://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup

 

[1_pointer]

Like I mentioned initially, I think the bundys were just as wrong, but what are going to be the long term consequences of the actions of both sides? How much more often are we going to see militias, and the like, subverting the legal efforts of LE? The BLM lost this round, but even if they would have succeded, would it have been a loss at the strategic level because of the precedence set? In this case enforcing the laws turned inflamatory, regardless of who was at fault.

Mr. Bundy has done things specifically laid out in the Prohibited Acts section of the CFR for BLM grazing. Some of those prohibited acts can result in civil penalties while others in civil and/or criminal penalties. I would not be much surprised if the criminal part of that is not now exercised...

 

[JoseCuervo]

No arguements here, Buzz, but it is how they are used. We use a term in the military called escalation of force, and they might have used it, but I have yet to get a accounting of the situation that seems like it isn't biased in one way or the other.

Hmmmmm...... escalation of force?

 

[JoseCuervo]

What were the restrictions imposed on the ranchers in 93 concerning the desert tortoise that made Bundy stop paying and nullify his grazing contract? Or was that just an excuse to stop paying?

Also, is there any truth that Harry Reid's son is pushing for a wind farm on this same ground? I'm not sure how that would make a difference anyway seeing how every wind farm I know of in Kansas have cattle grazing on that same property.

No, those are all nonsense being tossed in by right wing bloggers to try and gain sympathy. Harry Reid = Boogie Man....

Hell, even the Pelosi haters are getting in on it.

The facts are, the guy has a problem following the law, has a problem paying his debts, and threatened the BLM if they tried to seize his cattle for not paying over a $1 million to the government and as ordered by the Courts.

Anything else that gets tossed in (you forgot the Chinese investment red herring) is nonsense.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Hmmmmm...... escalation of force?

You are arguing with a guy who has persanally faced this type of situation, I completely understand what they were facing there, and this picture is not the point. Once it got here it was too late, and the agents had no choice in how they responded.

The problem is they let the situation get out of control and allowed the Bundys and their militia buddies take all of the initiative and attention. Once the militia folks showed up the BLM had already lost, regardless if they got the cattle off the land or not. There was no good way to do their job at that point, other than try and prevent loss of life on both sides.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

You are arguing with a guy who has persanally faced this type of situation, I completely understand what they were facing there, and this picture is not the point. Once it got here it was too late, and the agents had no choice in how they responded.

The problem is they let the situation get out of control and allowed the Bundys and their militia buddies take all of the initiative and attention. Once the militia folks showed up the BLM had already lost, regardless if they got the cattle off the land or not. There was no good way to do their job at that point, other than try and prevent loss of life on both sides.

So I would ask you again, what should they have done differently?

Obviously, surprise is always advantageous. That's why search warrants are served at 0200 hours on a dangerous raid.

When you are rounding up 900 head of cattle it's pretty impossible to have the element of surprise or being in any way covert about it. At that point, you may as well make all of your plans and go in hoping for the best.

Obviously you have military experience. You know full well what a shit sandwhich is, and know that sometimes you have to buck up and accept the fact that there is risk involved. If the government isn't willing to enforce a court order then what the hell good are they?

If the military established a no-fly zone and never enforced it, but kept warning foreign planes they shouldn't be there, how effective would it be? Eventually you'll have to take care of business the old fashioned way.

If you have some other solution, I'm all ears and would love to hear it.

 

[JoseCuervo]

You are arguing with a guy who has persanally faced this type of situation, I completely understand what they were facing there, and this picture is not the point. Once it got here it was too late, and the agents had no choice in how they responded.

The problem is they let the situation get out of control and allowed the Bundys and their militia buddies take all of the initiative and attention. Once the militia folks showed up the BLM had already lost, regardless if they got the cattle off the land or not. There was no good way to do their job at that point, other than try and prevent loss of life on both sides.

Bundy is the guy that doesn't acknowledge the BLM has any claims.

Bundy is the guy that hasn't paid grazing fees for over 20 years.

Bundy is the guy that claims his grandpa gave him the land.

Bundy is the guy saying:

A rancher involved in a tense stand off with federal agents has warned that he will never back down down from his fight.

Cliven Bundy said he expects officials with the Bureau of Land Management to make another attempt to seize his cattle.

'They will come, and I don't care,' he told MailOnline.

'The people and citizens of America will win this fight. We have God on our side and we will be better prepared for them next time.'

Bundy is the one that is asking for these guys to help:

Many of the militia, who wore camouflage clothing and stalked the roads around the Bundy home carrying automatic weapons,said they were prepared to take on the federal agents in a fire fight.

One was overheard boasting that he had two agent in his gun sight and could 'take them down.'

With the threat of violence so close federal officials took the decision to pull out their agents and return the estimated 300 cattle they had rounded up back to Bundy.

Do you really think there is an "escalation of force", or, is it more imaginary, something being made up by Bundy and his lawnchair militia types?

Despite not a single police officer being present when Bundy got up to speak he was flanked by two armed bodyguards.

When MailOnline attempted to reach Bundy's ranch they were stopped by four heavily armed members of a militia.

One carried an AR-15 rifle with telescopic sight and a hunting knife strapped to his chest.

Others in full camouflage clothing patrolled the road seemingly on the alert for an unseen enemy.

Asked why Bundy needed armed bodyguards, a militia member said brusquely: 'The Government are out to get him. We do not know what they are capable off.'

When it was pointed out that all federal agents had left the area 24 hours ago he replied: 'They could be spying on us from a drone.'

Yeah, who is escalating???