3 Week season for Mule Deer
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Hammsolo
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First, I am a Washington Resident and yearly “Come Home To Hunt” guy in MT. I lived there for the first 23 years of my life. I left because of the shit economy.
I know lack of season. Most of Washington’s deer seasons are about 10 days for rifle. It sucks, but I manage.
I know lack of deer. Growing up in Anaconda in the 80’s and 90’s, the sight of any antlered deer sent our hearts ablaze. The population was beyond anemic. I hunt MT every year because of my great relationship with my brother, and that’s it. I would be more focused on states that don’t rely on myths and legend.
Montana is HUGE, and home to drastically different habitats. They cannot and should not be managed the same way. A deer in the Pintlars leads a very different life than a deer in the center of the Custer. We need to treat the deer like the valuable commodity they are. This means research, gaining public input for reference, specifically planned management, and active enforcement.
I haven’t heard a valid argument for keeping the season so long. There is ZERO science to back it up. There’s loads of data showing it’s TOO long. If we know that is the primary variable issue, then we change only it in the world of science. We then collect data, and start a cycle of adjustments and identifying other variables. We don’t change a million variables or then we’re clueless as to why or why not the data changed.
Example: You decide to buy a rifle. You shoot it and it shoots 1 inch groups, but you want more! You have the action tuned up, buy a sweet CF stock, bed the action, buy a CF wrapped tube of goodness, free float the barrel and upgrade that pawn shop Weaver to a Leupold 5HD. You go shoot it. Does it shoot more accurately? Why? You don’t know… If you did all the same work, but tested after each individual change you would know.
Is this process slower? Yes, at first. However, in the end you end up with a better product.
My vote is to start by shortening the season based upon recommendations from the states wildlife biologists.
I know lack of season. Most of Washington’s deer seasons are about 10 days for rifle. It sucks, but I manage.
I know lack of deer. Growing up in Anaconda in the 80’s and 90’s, the sight of any antlered deer sent our hearts ablaze. The population was beyond anemic. I hunt MT every year because of my great relationship with my brother, and that’s it. I would be more focused on states that don’t rely on myths and legend.
Montana is HUGE, and home to drastically different habitats. They cannot and should not be managed the same way. A deer in the Pintlars leads a very different life than a deer in the center of the Custer. We need to treat the deer like the valuable commodity they are. This means research, gaining public input for reference, specifically planned management, and active enforcement.
I haven’t heard a valid argument for keeping the season so long. There is ZERO science to back it up. There’s loads of data showing it’s TOO long. If we know that is the primary variable issue, then we change only it in the world of science. We then collect data, and start a cycle of adjustments and identifying other variables. We don’t change a million variables or then we’re clueless as to why or why not the data changed.
Example: You decide to buy a rifle. You shoot it and it shoots 1 inch groups, but you want more! You have the action tuned up, buy a sweet CF stock, bed the action, buy a CF wrapped tube of goodness, free float the barrel and upgrade that pawn shop Weaver to a Leupold 5HD. You go shoot it. Does it shoot more accurately? Why? You don’t know… If you did all the same work, but tested after each individual change you would know.
Is this process slower? Yes, at first. However, in the end you end up with a better product.
My vote is to start by shortening the season based upon recommendations from the states wildlife biologists.
The reason, behind no change is easy. Landowners who profit and the ones who pay them. Do not want change. Crazy thing is everyone who hunts public wants change.
Instead they will make it easier to draw tags for non res private hunters and landowners.
Really u think mule deer hunting on public is feasible.
Ever go out opener and c more hunters than elk. Its the norm
Instead they will make it easier to draw tags for non res private hunters and landowners.
Really u think mule deer hunting on public is feasible.
Ever go out opener and c more hunters than elk. Its the norm
SAJ-99
Well-known member
The downside of that is it forces all hunting into a shorter window. Quality of the hunt would decrease, but it would probably help the resource a little. The only way to change in a meaningful way is to cut "opportunity". It's Montana hunters that have always been the problem in that respect, not landowners or outfitters.
brocksw
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If MT goes to a 3 week season in all/some units they will have to go to a limited draw in those same units. Not saying it's wrong or right, just saying you can't have that many hunters out in the field in that short of time and expect the quality of the hunt to be safe or enjoyable.
Hammsolo
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Why would they have to go to limited draw? Make the change, and then collect the data. Then make the next change that makes sense. It may be limited draw, area selection, or who knows what.
One of my favorite quotes by I believe a Italian fella… sorry. “A goal without a plan is just a wish.”
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brocksw
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Too many people on the ground at the same time. It's not a guess. It will happen.
brownbear932008
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Many of you guys seem to think shorter seasons are gonna solve the problem here. It's not, limiting the number of mule deer hunters in the field is the real problem solver here. Those deer are still gonna get shot in a 3 week season as well. Yes it may slightly help a few mature deer survive that are rut crazed. But as efficient as hunters and their equipment are today it's not gonna make very much of a difference. Until Montana goes on a draw across the board for mule deer I don't see much changing.
joelweb
Well-known member
It seems in western Montana that most the deer die after elk hunters start to panic around week three or four because they haven't filled their bull or cow tag. Ending mule deer about the time that panic normally sets in would save some deer and force people to hunt deer intentionally early in the season or stay focused on elk.
I'm sure there would be some additional crowding, but I've hunted in several western states and Montana is generally less crowded than other places.
I'm sure there would be some additional crowding, but I've hunted in several western states and Montana is generally less crowded than other places.
joelweb
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I think it would change the age structure more than the buck/doe ratio. These units certainly wouldn't be trophy units, but they'd probably have a handful of better bucks.
Hammsolo
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Saying “It will happen” makes it a guess. What facts do you have to back this up? Is there an example from another state where we’ve seen this? I don’t know of any, but I’m pleading ignorance. FYI, I do NOT want to increase average daily hunting pressure.
I believe I’ve read somewhere, but don’t have it readily available, that the average deer hunter spends 2.5 days hunting deer specifically. The average hunter invests those days on the opener/opening weekend.
I could hypothesize that average daily hunting pressure will only slightly increase when a deer hunting season is decreased from 5 to 3 weeks, because data has been collected that the average hunter hunts opening weekend. The primary hunting weekend will remain the opening weekend, but the average will increase due to the decreased mathematical range.
Hmmm… I wonder how many days the average Hunttalker spends hunting deer in their home state? I will post a pole… and I wonder which weekends they focus on?
brocksw
Well-known member
North Dakota would be the first state I'm familiar with that suffers from this problem. We see it in our rifle season and it's already been capped. There's only a couple ways to relieve that short burst of intense pressure. Drop tag numbers, lengthen season, or split tags into multiple different season. Or some combination of those.
Also, pretty much any otc elk season that's open during the rut (focuses an immense amount of pressure in a similar length of time) provides a great example.
Again, i'm not saying it's the wrong move. I'm just saying people need to be aware of that side effect.
OntarioHunter
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You're right. Conditions and populations vary district to district. It doesn't make a lot of sense to whack the season in the district I hunt when the landowners are crying to get the herd thinned. I shot my buck within the first three hours of hunting for deer (second week of the season). He was in a flock of fifteen including a larger buck (that I actually thought I was shooting). We had already seen at least twenty without getting out of the vehicle (I shot mine over a mile from the road). The landowner helped us load it on top of my Jimmy. He said three days earlier he saw more than fifty in one bunch on his winter wheat. No surprise since there wasn't anything for them to eat on the range. He wanted does shot ... badly. Would have helped him out but by the time I got to Havre all the extra B doe tags were gone. I stayed and hunted birds for anither five weeks and saw HUNDREDS of mule deer. Two years ago a couple of young fellas staying at the motel in Malta were about to leave for Washington with an outstanding muley buck and very nice 5x5 whitetail. They'd been hunting three days on BM land up near the border. The one guy kept track of sightings on his phone. Over three days they saw 118 BUCKS! They were putting the stalk on a whopper muley when the whitetail unexpectedly popped out of a coulee. Couldn't pass that up. That year (2020) I saw 26 deer while walking out a large coulee the first morning I hunted them (again, second week of the season - hunted elk the opener). May have seen one doe with two fawns twice. Other than that I'm certain they were all different deer. Where I hunt, there's no shortage of mule deer. Quite the opposite, in spite of abundant public hunting opportunities.
OntarioHunter
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I stopped hunting moose here decades ago. Shitshow management. Don't hunt deer here because there are literally zero opportunities for public hunting. Most of the so called deer hunters here are into trail cams, salting, and baiting - all legal. I want no part of that crap. "Fair chase" concept went out the window here forty years ago. It's a free-for-all. Anything goes except jacklighting and I expect that restriction will go any day.
8andcounting
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Bingo
ShootsManyBullets
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Any of these proposals will require actual management, possibly some science with real data collection, and willingness to change. Not gonna happen anytime soon.
It's not rocket science to limit tags in areas so they have a clue as to who's hunting where and stagger the seasons, etc.
A group of hunt talkers in a bar could have it done in a day.
It's not rocket science to limit tags in areas so they have a clue as to who's hunting where and stagger the seasons, etc.
A group of hunt talkers in a bar could have it done in a day.
8andcounting
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Fact is - Lots of if not most Montanan’s , and NR that hunt Montana , are not going to be ok giving up opportunities. Montana is an opportunity state when it comes to hunting . Most of the guys and gals who talk the talk on this site and other forums won’t walk the walk when push comes to shove
You sure about this? mtmuley
SixPoint
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Before commenting on the season setting process we just wrapped up yesterday, I spent quite a bit of time researching the 3 week season and discussing it with biologists. Initially I have to say that at face value, yes, this absolutely made sense. Don't shoot the big bucks in the rut when they are most vulnerable and therefore we will have more big bucks. Well, after looking through the data it actually suggests just the opposite. When the state has tried three week seasons in the past two things happen. First, hunter days increase because everyone thinks that's where they're going to find the big one and they flock to those units, and second, the number of mature bucks surveyed by biologists actually goes down, because more hunters are pursuing deer during the three week season and thus shooting more bucks. What is frustrating is that we will learn nothing from these several units in Region 2 going to a three week season because Region 2 doesn't survey mule deer. They have no idea what their buck : doe ratios are or even a rough idea of population trend. So what will happen is these seasons will go into effect, two years down the road we will ask how's it going, what are we seeing.. and they will shrug and say you tell us.
Like everyone on this forum, I want more big mule deer. The past 4 bucks I have taken in SW MT over the last ten years have not been big antlered deer. All mature deer, but not exceeding 140". The youngest of those bucks was 4.5 years old. This to me says what we need to be focusing on for mule deer is habitat and reducing competition with elk. We need healthy does that are in terrific shape, and then we need good habitat that can support deer. We need to be killing more conifers that are encroaching onto winter range and we need to be shooting more cow elk. We also need to be shooting mule deer does where there are simply too many for the limiting winter habitat to support. Lastly, We need to remember that the department is driving the opportunity train because every hunter survey they've ever done has shown a vast majority of MT residents proffer opportunity over limited entry. They are likely going to re-do the hunter survey which is great and will be very interesting to see the results of but I bet it won't change that much. If I was king, I would first spend serious resources on habitat, then I would require every region to have trend surveys so we can actually have data, then I would institute mandatory reporting so we could have real hunter data, and lastly I would consider making the entire state a draw for MD in each district so as to limit the hunting pressure even if it means we can only hunt mule deer every 2-3 years. There are gobs of whitetail in this state that need to get killed so there will always be deer hunting available in some form on a yearly basis. Of course all this goes out the window when you bring CWD into the mix and I don't have the energy for that discussion right now.
Like everyone on this forum, I want more big mule deer. The past 4 bucks I have taken in SW MT over the last ten years have not been big antlered deer. All mature deer, but not exceeding 140". The youngest of those bucks was 4.5 years old. This to me says what we need to be focusing on for mule deer is habitat and reducing competition with elk. We need healthy does that are in terrific shape, and then we need good habitat that can support deer. We need to be killing more conifers that are encroaching onto winter range and we need to be shooting more cow elk. We also need to be shooting mule deer does where there are simply too many for the limiting winter habitat to support. Lastly, We need to remember that the department is driving the opportunity train because every hunter survey they've ever done has shown a vast majority of MT residents proffer opportunity over limited entry. They are likely going to re-do the hunter survey which is great and will be very interesting to see the results of but I bet it won't change that much. If I was king, I would first spend serious resources on habitat, then I would require every region to have trend surveys so we can actually have data, then I would institute mandatory reporting so we could have real hunter data, and lastly I would consider making the entire state a draw for MD in each district so as to limit the hunting pressure even if it means we can only hunt mule deer every 2-3 years. There are gobs of whitetail in this state that need to get killed so there will always be deer hunting available in some form on a yearly basis. Of course all this goes out the window when you bring CWD into the mix and I don't have the energy for that discussion right now.
