Yellowstone wolf population is declining

[Deleted member 20812]

But that does not make them indigenous to the area but rather an introduction to the area? If my understanding is correct than wouldn’t wolves brought to the area by mankind be an invasive species?

No and no

 

[Cogreeny]

Montana wolves smoke a pack a day
Wyoming wolves smoke 2 packs a day

 

[LuketheDog]

Thank you

I didn't know we had a kissy-smiley-face here, is that like 'flirty/sassy' or 'sarcastic'? I'd hate to use it and send the wrong message to one of you Montana guys...

 

[icebreaker12]

Well yes, yes I am. Do you listen to the owner of this site? I do pretty religiously actually. I like what he has to say and he shares A LOT of the same views I do. Your right cheat grass is native to Europe. It was imported, to my understanding, as it is the primary food source for chukar. Which BTW are also native to the Middle East, IE. Afghanistan. Which were imported by our early presidency. Now that being said, yes I will compare the two, if you look at all the damage that folks such as myself say it does. With the wolves I was taught at a young age that wolves in Yellowstone WERE NOT a REINTRODUCTION but rather an INTRODUCTION. Introduction meaning new, never before existed, first time. That’s why I asked for clarification because how could they be native north but not have a range expanding in to what is now the USA. Thank you

You were taught incorrectly.

 

[madtom]

Just being facetious, lol l. My point is that what’s native and not native just changes over time. It always has and it always will, that’s just how this planet evolves. 100000 years ago it was elk crossing a strait. Today it is some invasive species flown in from some place and so on. Things are fluid and things never stay the same for too long in nature.

Native and introduced/invasive statuses do not change over time. A species in a given location is one or the other. Elk walking to North America on their own doesn’t make them non-native.

 

[stealthy_bowman]

Not sure I fully agree with the above, short term sure that is correct, but longer term, it’s just another part of the many changes that keep life evolving on this planet.
Think bigger picture and longer term. We tend to view things in very short time spans as humans. That’s of course practical for our needs. The earth on the other hand, is working on timelines that are on a completely different level and it has nothing but time on its side. All changes are really part of the evolutionary process, even those induced by humans, as we are very much a product of nature and no different from it. Do we really think eco systems will look anything like they to today in a million years? Of course they won’t, even species will be different. That may seem like an eternity to us, but it’s just a blip on the timeline for the earth.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

It was imported, to my understanding, as it is the primary food source for chukar.

Cheatgrass was introduced to North America through contaminated grain seed, straw packing material, and soil used as ballast in ships sailing from Eurasia. ... Cheatgrass was able to occupy areas where the native vegetation had been reduced, beginning its persistent march across the landscape.

 

[madtom]

Not sure I fully agree with the above, short term sure that is correct, but longer term, it’s just another part of the many changes that keep life evolving on this planet.
Think bigger picture and longer term. We tend to view things in very short time spans as humans. That’s of course practical for our needs. The earth on the other hand, is working on timelines that are on a completely different level and it has nothing but time on its side. All changes are really part of the evolutionary process, even those induced by humans, as we are very much a product of nature and no different from it. Do we really think eco systems will look anything like they to today in a million years? Of course they won’t, even species will be different. That may seem like an eternity to us, but it’s just a blip on the timeline for the earth.

Well, that’s an interesting argument, but the scientific community disagrees. An animal doesn’t need to stay in one place for its entire evolution from a single celled organism to be native. By that logic, there are basically no native animals or plants on earth. If a species arrives in a new location by their own means (i.e., not aided by humans), it’s pretty hard to argue they’re not native.

 

[buffybr]

Well when they eat all the food then their numbers decline too. Don’t plan on seeing much of anything if you’re planning on wasting vacation time in Yellowstone. The wolves ate everything to see except old faithful! Really.

Funny, but that's not what folks that have been there this spring are saying. I wonder how that could be?

I've lived less than 100 miles north of Yellowstone Park since 1978. I visit the Park several times every year, and with work I'd often drive through the NW corner of the Park to West Yellowstone several times a week during the summer. I used to enjoy seeing hundreds to thousands of elk, dozens of bighorn sheep, and up to a half dozen moose on almost every visit to the Park. So far this year I've made two visits (April and July) to Yellowstone Park and combined I haven't seen 50 elk, less than a half dozen sheep, and I haven't seen a moose in the Park in 20 years.

 

[Coach Chris]

I'm willing to bet cars and trucks kill more moose than wolves

Iconic Jackson moose herd is at risk from car collisions on the busiest highway in the state

Four moose have died in car collisions since last summer within three miles of Ross MacIntyre’s house near Jackson.

trib.com

 

[BrentD]

I'll wager that bears kill more than either and maybe both.

 

[onpoint]

Wolves have had a definite & unquestionable impact on ungulates in YNP. Fact.
However, some of the hyperbole found in this thing is quite amusing. As usual.

I have seen more moose in the Gallatin portion of the park in the past few years than most the previous 20 (about when the '88 fires occurred). buffybr hasn't. Hmm.
Elk numbers are down. Fact. But, there have been some pretty decent bull kills in the Gardiner area during the regular season in the past few years & I have photos of a couple hundred park elk in one bunch at one time.
"Wolves ate everything". Hmmm.
Every winter for the past few, I've posted a Corwin Springs sheep herd pics thread here, lotsa' sheep, enough that I wonder why MFWP won't open a season here - they spend a good deal of their year in THE PARK.
More antelope than "I've ever seen", currently near the north entrance.

Two things. "What I see and think I know" may not be a true representative of........ And, remember - this IS THE INTERNET.

 

[kmott]

Actually, elk aren’t technically native to North America. They migrated over the Bering strait from present day Russia a mere 100,000+ years ago...

so did the native humans, though nobody really knows when . same as the elk. just guesstimates pulled from posteriors.

 

[Panda Bear]

I can not tell if you fellows are joking, serious or a little of both. I will share with you what we were told a couple years ago up here in Canada

" We were told to hunt more moose in order to save the caribou from the wolves" however, we were also told to continue to keep thinning out the wolf packs.

As strange as this might sound there is some truth to it. And on the plus side, every freezer in every village is full of moose meat

 

[Sytes]

Greater Yellowstone elk suffer worse nutrition and lower birth rates due to wolves

Wolves have caused elk in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem to change their behavior and foraging habits so much so that herds are having fewer calves, mainly due to changes in their nutrition.

www.montana.edu

Ecosystem Scale Declines in Elk Recruitment and Population Growth with Wolf Colonization: A Before-After-Control-Impact Approach

The reintroduction of wolves (Canis lupus) to Yellowstone provided the unusual opportunity for a quasi-experimental test of the effects of wolf predation on their primary prey (elk – Cervus elaphus) in a system where top-down, bottom-up, and abiotic forces on prey population dynamics were...

journals.plos.org

 

[ClearCreek]

I've lived less than 100 miles north of Yellowstone Park since 1978. I visit the Park several times every year, and with work I'd often drive through the NW corner of the Park to West Yellowstone several times a week during the summer. I used to enjoy seeing hundreds to thousands of elk, dozens of bighorn sheep, and up to a half dozen moose on almost every visit to the Park. So far this year I've made two visits (April and July) to Yellowstone Park and combined I haven't seen 50 elk, less than a half dozen sheep, and I haven't seen a moose in the Park in 20 years.

Geez buffybr, I guess I am lucky as I spent 3 days in the park in late May this year and we saw a couple hundred elk, probably 25-30 sheep and four or five moose.

ClearCreek

 

[Panda Bear]

I'll wager that bears kill more than either and maybe both.

This fact, surprises a lot of people

 

[Randi]

double post, see next post

 

[Randi]

I'll wager that bears kill more than either and maybe both.

and you would be correct

 

[Sytes]

Immediate kill - may be correct (?) What is this based on? There are published / peer reviewed research that present the polar opposite when considering the effect of wolves and elk. Mind you griz and cougars were present prior to the wolves re-introduction to the GYE and the studied effects of this new dynamic.