@BrentD I accidentally left out the first part of your question/comment. For lack of better words, my intent behind, "immediate kill" is to share the reduced population issue is based on many factors, inclusive of the research papers that present predators, specifically wolves, pressure on ungulates especially cows and birth/abort due to pressured nutrition changes, etc... An immediate kill is merely one factor.
Yellowstone wolf population is declining
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RobG
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Onpoint, call me sensitive and assuming if you want. As you probably know I've dished out and received far worse than that, but that's not why I come here these days.
Relaying Julie's comment was meant to add to the conversation. IIRC she was referring to the stretch in the canyon below Big Sky. Maybe you "assumed" otherwise. I'm fine with someone showing that I'm wrong. It's just annoying that people have to be obnoxious when they could say something meaningful, especially someone with information like you.
My personal bias comes from what I used to see 40 years ago, but I'm sure you know that personal observations are a very poor way to gather useful data. In the last 20 years I rarely see moose when I drive through; therefore I don't even have enough data to say whether they have increased or decreased during that time frame. You can't draw a conclusion because you see that red cliff cow often. I've seen it too. Whoopty flipping do. If wolves are chasing elk onto the road it is still road kill. Or maybe I misinterpreted what she said and moose populations are doing fine in spite of all the road kill in the canyon.
Now you are waffling on whatever your opinion is. In fact you seem to be implying you could inform us if you wanted to, but we aren't worthy of knowing your opinion. I It's just annoying when I'm trying to be helpful, but I'm just a sensitive guy these days.
It would be nice to know if you agree or disagree and why, but if you don't want to tell us I understand that this is just the internet.
Relaying Julie's comment was meant to add to the conversation. IIRC she was referring to the stretch in the canyon below Big Sky. Maybe you "assumed" otherwise. I'm fine with someone showing that I'm wrong. It's just annoying that people have to be obnoxious when they could say something meaningful, especially someone with information like you.
My personal bias comes from what I used to see 40 years ago, but I'm sure you know that personal observations are a very poor way to gather useful data. In the last 20 years I rarely see moose when I drive through; therefore I don't even have enough data to say whether they have increased or decreased during that time frame. You can't draw a conclusion because you see that red cliff cow often. I've seen it too. Whoopty flipping do. If wolves are chasing elk onto the road it is still road kill. Or maybe I misinterpreted what she said and moose populations are doing fine in spite of all the road kill in the canyon.
Now you are waffling on whatever your opinion is. In fact you seem to be implying you could inform us if you wanted to, but we aren't worthy of knowing your opinion. I It's just annoying when I'm trying to be helpful, but I'm just a sensitive guy these days.
It would be nice to know if you agree or disagree and why, but if you don't want to tell us I understand that this is just the internet.
All I know is that I haven't heard a bugle on the west side of the Mad valley in four years, and talking with a guy that runs cattle on the northwest side the other day, he said his cattle are getting chased all over the damn place, he hasn't seen any elk yet this year, but he has seen 20 wolves this summer....
onpoint
Well-known member
Rob, et al.,
"Maybe you assumed....." I make no assumptions when it comes to these things. Thus my remarks, " without data......."
"You can't draw a conclusion because you see that red cliff cow often". 100% agreement. Thus what you call my "waffling". I do not pretend to know the answers so I CAN"T give a qualified position.
I posed two scenarios, neither/either of which may/may not be valid. They were simply posed. Always more questions than answers. Always.
If I have an agenda, or maybe a message here, it's that without DATA, well ....... I hope you get my drift.
There are always plenty of armchair wildlife experts. Especially when those experts are hunters. And also, when those hunters have misgivings about what the "experts" have to say..................
I spent 30+ years in the field collecting, compiling and rudimentally analyzing a bit of this type of data, and I admit to KNOWING relatively little.
And, I jest about it, But, "this is the internet" underlies the discussion of all these types of topics.
I hope that isn't equally offensive to some/many. If so, just shoot the message cuz the messenger sux............
"Maybe you assumed....." I make no assumptions when it comes to these things. Thus my remarks, " without data......."
"You can't draw a conclusion because you see that red cliff cow often". 100% agreement. Thus what you call my "waffling". I do not pretend to know the answers so I CAN"T give a qualified position.
I posed two scenarios, neither/either of which may/may not be valid. They were simply posed. Always more questions than answers. Always.
If I have an agenda, or maybe a message here, it's that without DATA, well ....... I hope you get my drift.
There are always plenty of armchair wildlife experts. Especially when those experts are hunters. And also, when those hunters have misgivings about what the "experts" have to say..................
I spent 30+ years in the field collecting, compiling and rudimentally analyzing a bit of this type of data, and I admit to KNOWING relatively little.
And, I jest about it, But, "this is the internet" underlies the discussion of all these types of topics.
I hope that isn't equally offensive to some/many. If so, just shoot the message cuz the messenger sux............
onpoint
Well-known member
"And, I jest about it, But, "this is the internet" underlies the discussion of all these types of topics".
I hope the above illustrates my point.
The Hedgehog
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Isn’t it bird season?
onpoint
Well-known member
RobG
Well-known member
No kidding... I'm trying to get out of the house but some people are being difficult on the internet and it makes me sad. Plus I'm not equipped with the skills or dogs to do much more than blast grouse on the ground with my grandmas cheap old Remington 20 gauge. But I will get out.
Onpoint, I did assume that Julie, being the biologist, had enough data to make a logical conclusion. Maybe I was wrong. Alternatively, she could have just been saying that a lot of moose are killed in that stretch. I didn't think it was a controversial statement but maybe it was.
There ya go TC207. OnPoint and his brethren should find this acceptable. Otherwise, your comment is one defined by the Hunt Talk curmudgeon Co-op as opposition to their rationalized, "facts".
Oh, just kidding... not.
onpoint
Well-known member
Yup, you are very correct. And Fall streamer chucking on the Yellowstone, bugling/rutting elk pics in the park, boat out on Hebgen, etc.
Congrats to your son on the Billy.
Luck to all this fall...........
RobG
Well-known member
Onpoint, to follow up, you keep bringing up data, but Julie is the only one in this conversation that made a comment based on data (with the caveat that I may have misinterpreted her comment). It flies in the face of everything you seem to be saying about us making conclusions based on personal observations. I don't see how your comments could be linked to mine unless you wholeheartedly agree.
The Hedgehog
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So many..Don't you have trophy pics to display?
but for now busy meat cutting in the kitchen with some suitable art on the wall. Onpoint - for you an extra bag of delicious jerky just to keep that smile on your face.Enjoy your first fall of retirement.
onpoint
Well-known member
Mmm, billy goat jerky.
I will.........................................
I will.........................................
BrentD
Well-known member
if there are no elk, did you ask him what those 20 wolves are eating in the meantime. It sure ain't all his cattle.
BrentD
Well-known member
I guess I'm misinterpretting this statement. "There are published / peer reviewed research that present the polar opposite when considering the effect of wolves and elk. "
What are the published polar opposites? I can think of only one and it's really not that polar when it comes to elk numbers and wolves, just in the means to the end.
geetar
Well-known member
Lamar Valley was thick with bison and not a wolf in sight as of July 23rd when I was there.
dead ho
It was a response based the thread topic and not realizing your comment was about moose in the Jackson herd.
BrentD
Well-known member
No, my comment wasn't about the moose herd in Jackson. I think this thread is all twisted up. It's lost me.
RobG
Well-known member
To impress greenhorn I went grouse hunting this afternoon.
I found an illegal mountain bike trail. I also saw and ate lots of chantrelles, huckleberries, strawberries, goose berries, fairy ball berries, and even grouse berries. But I saw no grouse. In fact, it seems the only time I ever see grouse is when I'm elk hunting. They taunt me until I cannot stand it anymore, then I shoot their little heads off to teach them a lesson but this scares all the elk away, which is maybe why I have to wait until the shoulder season to shoot an elk.
Since I only kill grouse while elk hunting it was fitting that I saw this mud caked raggedy horned critter while grouse hunting.
I could hear it taunting me: "Rob," it said, "I am taunting you at 50 yards today because I know you cannot hunt me." Then it continued, "Next week I will taunt you a second time at 50 yards because I know you will not shoot that far. And when you can carry a gun that will shoot that far I will taunt you a third time at 50 yards, but this time you will only see my ass on one side of the tree and my head on the other side. Bwahaha."
Finally, as it ran off I heard it snort out a final insult: "And when you get home you'll find the picture you took sucks."
There aren't as many grouse as there used to be. Maybe the moose being chased by the wolves are trampling them.
I found an illegal mountain bike trail. I also saw and ate lots of chantrelles, huckleberries, strawberries, goose berries, fairy ball berries, and even grouse berries. But I saw no grouse. In fact, it seems the only time I ever see grouse is when I'm elk hunting. They taunt me until I cannot stand it anymore, then I shoot their little heads off to teach them a lesson but this scares all the elk away, which is maybe why I have to wait until the shoulder season to shoot an elk.
Since I only kill grouse while elk hunting it was fitting that I saw this mud caked raggedy horned critter while grouse hunting.
I could hear it taunting me: "Rob," it said, "I am taunting you at 50 yards today because I know you cannot hunt me." Then it continued, "Next week I will taunt you a second time at 50 yards because I know you will not shoot that far. And when you can carry a gun that will shoot that far I will taunt you a third time at 50 yards, but this time you will only see my ass on one side of the tree and my head on the other side. Bwahaha."
Finally, as it ran off I heard it snort out a final insult: "And when you get home you'll find the picture you took sucks."
There aren't as many grouse as there used to be. Maybe the moose being chased by the wolves are trampling them.
The Hedgehog
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“Those retarded black chickens - Dad do people actually hunt them?”
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