The Sage Grouse Crisis has Reached Critical Mass

[shines@times]

For those of you who are grazing experts . . .

How does cattle grazing differ from bison grazing? I've read stories of the millions of bison and the millions of sage grouse which used to inhabit the intermountain west simultaneously. I'm not a grazing expert, but I'm not sure I understand how millions of bison weren't more destructive to sage grouse nests and nesting conditions than a few hundred thousand head of cattle.

No expert here. I'd just like to comment that I'm guessing it was a matter of the freedom of movement that wild bison herds not only enjoyed, but were forced to adopt due to pressure from predator harassment including from men. I doubt that the impact of a bison herd passing through a given habitat ever looked like the scene I seem to recall from "Dances With Wolves" where the terrain appeared rotor-tilled in the aftermath of a herd's passage. Even were that an historically accurate portrayal, I have to think that the traces of herd movements would have laid down relatively narrow (compared to the breath of the historical prairie lands) threads across the land that would have had no significant lasting effect upon continental population of birds, especially in that time before introduced invasive species both floral and faunal, pesticides, broad swath of monoculture farms, railroads and highways, urban and rural development and all the myriad other impacts on Sage grouse habitat. Personally, I'm curious about the historical Sage grouse response to wildfire, particularly in light of Amerindian employment of deliberate burns to maintain prairie environments in their efforts to enhance the populations of their prey species, especially big game.

 

[shines@times]

They are not endemic but not invasive either. Pheasants and Huns filled a niche that was either always empty or created by settlement (i.e. displacement of prairie chicken and sage grouse by agriculture). Yes, I wish we could go back to precolumbian days but it ain't going to happen. Pheasants and Huns are better than nothing. As far as I can tell the two exotics coexist well with native sharptails and sage grouse

Species don't necessarily need to be exotic to be invasive. Introducing turkeys to California has been very destructive. They have displaced native quail. It is also claimed they are hard on ruff grouse but last I knew the jury was still out on that.

You appear to have made inference without evidence. Nothing in my comment should have suggested to you that I consider either pheasants or Huns (now referred to in some state hunting regulations as "Grey partridge" in yet another intrusion of politically correct pandering into popular culture, not to mention our hunting heritage) to be invasive species. Indeed, both are among my favorite upland quarries and table fare. No doubt, I would add Chuckar partridge to the list had I ever been able to locate the little buggers other than while driving past grit-picking and basking birds adjacent eastern Washington roads. Chuckar have the added distinct advantage of eating a truly invasive species.

I'm not sure how grain farmers feel about pheasants and Huns, but I see them, along with native goose and duck species, as great boons to American sportsmen in regons where that agricultural activity has displaced historical habitat types.

If the discussion is to shift to invasive and deleterious species, I nominate Felis domesticus for special condemnation. I'm guessing domestic cats have a more significant impact on quail than do turkeys; but anything that displaces my favorite gamebird is relegated to pest designation in my admittedly biased opinion.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

now referred to in some state hunting regulations as "Grey partridge" in yet another intrusion of politically correct pandering into popular culture, not to mention our hunting heritage

Uuum, they have been referred to as this for decades.

 

[SAJ-99]

If the discussion is to shift to invasive and deleterious species, I nominate Felis domesticus for special condemnation. I'm guessing domestic cats have a more significant impact on quail than do turkeys; but anything that displaces my favorite gamebird is relegated to pest designation in my admittedly biased opinion.

An observation was made to me by local rancher that today’s farm equipment is much larger and faster than that of even 20yrs ago. He has to keep an eye out for elk and deer fawns. I can only image the number of chicks of every bird species that couldn’t escape the reaper in that first cutting. DU did a lot of work with farmers in prairie pothole region with winter wheat harvest. I wonder if some similar programs would help grouse, pheasants and other non-game species.

 

[shines@times]

Uuum, they have been referred to as this for decades.

And the pandering has been rife for decades--some of us have the perspective of more years than do others. They were "Hungarian partridge" in the hunting regulations that I utilized to plan my hunts in the 1980's.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

And the pandering has been rife for decades--some of us have the perspective of more years than do others. They were "Hungarian partridge" in the hunting regulations that I utilized to plan my hunts in the 1980's.

Huh. I’ve seen them referred to as Gray Partridges in literature from the 70’s and 80’s, which isn’t surprising as that has always been recognized as their common name, along with English Partridge and Hungarian Partridge.

 

[BWALKER77]

I think they tried with caribou but were late. The current blame is on wolves of course, but they have been declining for a long time. Not sure ESA fits into this under your narrative. You somehow think not enough was done? I guess it is a fair point but what do you want done? I’m guessing you are against stopping logging.

What I am suggesting is the flag should have been raised much faster. And absolutely logging should have been stopped in those areas if that was deemed the correct response. Montana has areas that need logging way more than the areas the caribou inhabited. Of course the groups I mentioned used the ESA to halt that based on impacts real or not to grizzly bears.
I am also not hopeful the government will do much of anything that actually effects sage grouse viability. After reading more than a few articles on the subject I am not certain we have even a slight idea what's actually going on with them.

 

[BWALKER77]

No expert here. I'd just like to comment that I'm guessing it was a matter of the freedom of movement that wild bison herds not only enjoyed, but were forced to adopt due to pressure from predator harassment including from men. I doubt that the impact of a bison herd passing through a given habitat ever looked like the scene I seem to recall from "Dances With Wolves" where the terrain appeared rotor-tilled in the aftermath of a herd's passage. Even were that an historically accurate portrayal, I have to think that the traces of herd movements would have laid down relatively narrow (compared to the breath of the historical prairie lands) threads across the land that would have had no significant lasting effect upon continental population of birds, especially in that time before introduced invasive species both floral and faunal, pesticides, broad swath of monoculture farms, railroads and highways, urban and rural development and all the myriad other impacts on Sage grouse habitat. Personally, I'm curious about the historical Sage grouse response to wildfire, particularly in light of Amerindian employment of deliberate burns to maintain prairie environments in their efforts to enhance the populations of their prey species, especially big game.

Bison would have been confined to areas close to water in the short grass prarie regions. Much more concentrated than we think.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

What I am suggesting is the flag should have been raised much faster.

Couldn’t agree more. However, I’m of pretty firm belief the damage was done long before folks thought of raising the flag. I’m not confident anything meaningful could have been done by that point.

 

[OntarioHunter]

You appear to have made inference without evidence. Nothing in my comment should have suggested to you that I consider either pheasants or Huns (now referred to in some state hunting regulations as "Grey partridge" in yet another intrusion of politically correct pandering into popular culture, not to mention our hunting heritage) to be invasive species. Indeed, both are among my favorite upland quarries and table fare. No doubt, I would add Chuckar partridge to the list had I ever been able to locate the little buggers other than while driving past grit-picking and basking birds adjacent eastern Washington roads. Chuckar have the added distinct advantage of eating a truly invasive species.

I'm not sure how grain farmers feel about pheasants and Huns, but I see them, along with native goose and duck species, as great boons to American sportsmen in regons where that agricultural activity has displaced historical habitat types.

If the discussion is to shift to invasive and deleterious species, I nominate Felis domesticus for special condemnation. I'm guessing domestic cats have a more significant impact on quail than do turkeys; but anything that displaces my favorite gamebird is relegated to pest designation in my admittedly biased opinion.

Couldn't agree more. Gawdam feral cats had overrun the town of Mariposa when I lived there ten years ago. They were EVERYWHERE. Unfortunate they aren't big enough to tackle the local turkey invaders. Grain farmers have a bigger hatred for honkers. The buggers can clean out spring wheat and corn when it's first coming up. Pheasants, like turkeys, are opportunists and will eat about anything including destructive hoppers and even mice. Hell, they'll even eat each other (ask anyone who's tried to raise them). Never talked to a grain farmer who harboured pheasants any ill will. They tell me Huns feed on weed seeds and grain that falls on the ground. They're obviously too small to tackle grain on a stalk. Pheasants may have the capability to feed on standing corn (I see them often roosting or feeding in Russian olive bushes) but I have never seen a Hun perched off the ground.

 

[rwc101]

No dog in the fight, but I thought this was interesting. Hard to search for "hun" without getting 99.99% results about krauts.

 

[Eric Albus]

Ha Ha follow the science! Nope you won't hear that on this one as the sage grouse is just a pawn and THEY have made a decision to use the bird and let them disappear if needed. WEST NILE VIRUS!!!!!!!!! arrived in 1999 some local populations crashed as much as 25% a year in the early 2000'S!! Yes the birds have lost habitat in some places but what about the areas they didn't lose habitat. Oh let us jump to climate change as option two on the decline>. The major cause of the decline is west nile virus and predators in most areas!!! Now the they on this board are gonna search and try and find local data " climate change or Oil and gas & subdivisions. If you really care about the birds> drop your politics and work on the major issue West Nile. How are the birds doing where water sources have a treatment plan to kill the mosquitos?? Might be hard to find that research as the researchers are part of the THEY many times.

You are not off. These morons can laugh all they want, point to biased “science”, put reflectors on fences and wear tin foil hats.
I ranch in Sage grouse habitat and have seen WNV wreak havoc. I also see about 100x’s more arial predators than I saw as a kid. Ravens and crows are two of the biggest predators Sage grouse have. Yet these liberal morond won’t admit it. Blame cows oil/gas for declines to promote and agenda.
i also see more sagies the last
Couple years than in a long time. Maybe the ones surviving are immune to WNV??

 

[Hydrophilic]

 

[OntarioHunter]

You are not off. These morons can laugh all they want, point to biased “science”, put reflectors on fences and wear tin foil hats.
I ranch in Sage grouse habitat and have seen WNV wreak havoc. I also see about 100x’s more arial predators than I saw as a kid. Ravens and crows are two of the biggest predators Sage grouse have. Yet these liberal morond won’t admit it. Blame cows oil/gas for declines to promote and agenda.
i also see more sagies the last
Couple years than in a long time. Maybe the ones surviving are immune to WNV??

Curious. How do you know West Nile Virus is killing so many sage hens. How many dead birds have you sent in for testing? Numbers please. Where did you send them?

 

[rwc101]

 

[Eric Albus]

Curious. How do you know West Nile Virus is killing so many sage hens. How many dead birds have you sent in for testing? Numbers please. Where did you send them?

I have seen them laying dead by the dozen, chicks and adults. Mosquitoes so thick they turn white bulls gray. I did the math on my own. Also found dead meadow larks, magpies and larks. If that’s not good enough for you, come up the 5th of June. I’ll provide meals/lodging and beer, but you have to sit outside in tank top and shorts, no bug spray allowed. I may not know much, but I know about mosquitoes.

 

[SAJ-99]

You are not off. These morons can laugh all they want, point to biased “science”, put reflectors on fences and wear tin foil hats.
I ranch in Sage grouse habitat and have seen WNV wreak havoc. I also see about 100x’s more arial predators than I saw as a kid. Ravens and crows are two of the biggest predators Sage grouse have. Yet these liberal morond won’t admit it. Blame cows oil/gas for declines to promote and agenda.
i also see more sagies the last
Couple years than in a long time. Maybe the ones surviving are immune to WNV??

Jays, crows and raptors show the most susceptibility to WNV, so your theory has some holes. Might want to adapt the conspiracy stories. Also, I thought you were in a horrible drought. How are there mosquito problems?

 

[OntarioHunter]

Curious. How do you know West Nile Virus is killing so many sage hens. How many dead birds have you sent in for testing? Numbers please. Where did you send them?

A few years ago during the bird flu scare I was hunting pheasants on a Hi Line creek when my Lab Opal flushed a drake mallard that fluttered to the other side where she caught it. Must be someone's cripple. When she brought it to me it promptly died in my hands. Weird. Looking it over I found no damage at all. Scary. So I phoned the area block management tech and left a message (he gave his cell number years ago to report violations). Problem was I didn't have US federal or state waterfowl licenses so legally I couldn't possess a dead duck. But I figured someone should do an autopsy in case it was bird flu. At the time due to bird flu I couldn't import birds from Montana back to Canada (the restriction was relaxed two weeks later but remained in force for North Dakota birds through the end of the season). The tech gave me instructions to stash the mallard inside a gas shack at a certain country road intersection and he'd pick it up. The guy agreed it was not a good idea to take it in to Havre office. He didn't trust the staff not to bust me. Anyway, an autopsy in Helena a couple days later revealed the duck had been shot in the spine and couldn't use its tail rudder. Kidney infection killed it.

Moral of the story: Find a fresh dead animal with no obvious cause of death, collect it or call it in. Definitely we need to keep an eye out for CWD and West Nile. Researchers and managers rely on the mass of sportsmen in the field (and ranchers on the farm!) to help gather information and report unnatural irregularities.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I have seen them laying dead by the dozen, chicks and adults. Mosquitoes so thick they turn white bulls gray. I did the math on my own. Also found dead meadow larks, magpies and larks. If that’s not good enough for you, come up the 5th of June. I’ll provide meals/lodging and beer, but you have to sit outside in tank top and shorts, no bug spray allowed. I may not know much, but I know about mosquitoes.

It ain't the Milk until you're a pint of two low. And that's a scientific fact.

As others have mentioned, WNV is a factor, so if you had your magic wand, tell us how to mitigate for it. It becomes much more of an issue with produced water such as standing irrigation water & well waste water.

As for corvids being in greater numbers, that's a fact as well. I remember growing up and never seeing a raven. They were extremely rare outside of towns or dumps. But those animals all flourish on human disturbed habitats. Their ability to adapt is far greater than sage grouse. So the cause of increased corvids is disturbed habitat, and the proper response is to increase habitat restoration rather than trying to kill all of the corvids or anything else that eats a grouse egg. That's essentially like trying to dig a hole in the ocean.

Eric very well could have seen good numbers on occasion. That doesn't mean that the bird is doing well across it's range, or that populations aren't consistently trending down. Some spots I hunt have little habitat disturbance, but their numbers are way down, for example.

UT bird populations are in the tank. WY populations are in the tank, same with ID, CO, WA, OR. TCP has a good explanation of the reports we see. It's from Sept, so a little dated, but their chief scientist is pretty spot on with a lot of this. https://www.trcp.org/2020/09/11/making-sense-sage-grouse-population-reports/

In the end, it all boils down to habitat. Improving habitat, conserving habitat, designating it as wildlife refuges, ensuring those who denude habitat make it right, etc would do far more to restore grouse populations that the ham-fisted approach of trying to kill ravens & battle mosquitoes.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I have seen them laying dead by the dozen, chicks and adults. Mosquitoes so thick they turn white bulls gray. I did the math on my own. Also found dead meadow larks, magpies and larks. If that’s not good enough for you, come up the 5th of June. I’ll provide meals/lodging and beer, but you have to sit outside in tank top and shorts, no bug spray allowed. I may not know much, but I know about mosquitoes.

Hmmm. I worked one year as a park ranger at the Bear Paw Battlefield outside Chinook. Snake Creek runs through the site and mosquitoes can be bad for a couple weeks during the year ... if the wind isn't blowing forty miles an hour ... which it almost always was. Unlike my notoriously lazy predecessor, I was out at the battlefield almost every day walking the trail, mowing the grass, giving talks, cleaning the johns, checking the fences, painting, etc. Mosquitoes could be bad some days but I've sure seen a lot worse (visit Alaska in July!). I never found a dead bird of any sort. Not one. And that place was teaming with pheasants.