Ranchers should be worried about the rabbits instead of bison

[katqanna]

I am laughing my ass off right now. I read this article - Study: Bison don’t compete much with cattle for grass

Ranchers fear bison for two main reasons: disease and grazing competition. But a new study shows that bison aren’t the competitors they would seem to be... Rabbits didn’t really factor into the equation for the ranchers. But they should have... But rabbits ate more than a third of the grass.

So when they talked about ranchers fearing bison, when it should have been rabbits I immediately thought of the Monty Python killer rabbit segment. I love Monty Python.

 

[have gun will travel]

Now I don't want to get into the bison debate which I don't know much about. But man those must be some big rabbits! Do they run in herds?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Over two years, Ranglack found that cattle consumed about half of the grass while bison at only about 13 percent.

But rabbits ate more than a third of the grass.

Part of the reason is because Utah ranchers and hunters have coyote extermination programs. Without coyotes to eat the rabbits, the rabbit populations cycle between getting so big that they crash due to a lack of food and then they rebound.

Ranglack’s paper suggested that allowing more coyotes on the landscape would keep the rabbit numbers down, benefitting ranchers by leaving more forage for other animals.

Sure hope we don't get eaten out of house and home by rabbits up here in NW Montana. We just had a predator contest up here last weekend. All the woof have killed the deer and elk and now rabbits numbers are liable to go crazy since we don't have woofs, coyotes, deer nor elk here anymore. Come to think of it we don't have many cows either.

 

[1_pointer]

Kat- Not to nit pick (too much ) but you misquoted the article you linked. Here's a cut and paste of what you were trying to quote:

Over two years, Ranglack found that cattle consumed about half of the grass while bison ate about 13 percent.

But rabbits ate more than a third of the vegetation.

While I haven't read the journal article so I don't know if something was lost in translation to the newspaper article, but your quote says 1/3 the grass. The part I cut and pasted says 1/3 the vegetation. That may or may not be quite the same thing depending on the vegetation type.

Thanks for that link though as I'm going to have to track down that journal article. I'm interested to know how they distinguished utilization by animal species.

In regards to coyotes, the ranch I did my research on did not actively control coyotes. Their rationale, though I doubt they could ever prove it statistically, was the coyotes kept the rabbit population down which they hoped kept raptors away. Raptors like to eat sage grouse and the ranch wanted as many of them as possible.

 

[sbhooper]

I grew up on a ranch in western Nebraska. We went through a period where there were lots of the big white-tailed jack rabbits. It was during the days of poisoning every coyote in the country. My dad told me that according to whatever studies they did back then, that 10 rabbits eat as much as one cow.

I don't know how that can be determined, but I do know that those are some big rabbits. Now that all the hawks, coyotes etc. are a dime a dozen, there are very few rabbits in the hills of that country. The predator thing is a big factor with rabbits.

 

[1_pointer]

According to Montana State University, 48 white tailed jackrabbit = 1 AUM. For black tailed jacks its 62.
http://www.msuextension.org/musselshell/PDF FILES/AUM TABLE.pdf

 

[noharleyyet]

The expression 'go figure' certainly isn't lost on Mantannyains.

 

[MThuntr]

It wasn't long ago that a "peer-reviewed" journal published a paper that had "Get Me Off Your F$#@ing Mailing List" 863 times.

 

[katqanna]

Kat- Not to nit pick (too much ) but you misquoted the article you linked. Here's a cut and paste of what you were trying to quote:

While I haven't read the journal article so I don't know if something was lost in translation to the newspaper article, but your quote says 1/3 the grass. The part I cut and pasted says 1/3 the vegetation. That may or may not be quite the same thing depending on the vegetation type.

1_Pointer, I got the article moments after it was posted and simply copied and pasted it to my newsletter. I didnt change grass, so they must have corrected their online version after I copied it. Even with my concussed brain I know the difference between vegetation and grass. But being the end of the day, other than my opening line and the Monty Python link, I had been working on the newsletter - copy and paste of links and quotes, so that was the mode I was in and all the brain I had left in me. Thanks for the heads up. Had to change the newsletter but cant edit the opening post, too much time has elapsed.

Link for the study

 

[1_pointer]

No worries. I'm a vegetation nerd so pick up on those things. I was glad to see the link you provided had a link to the original article. Sorta interesting to see what my old stomping grounds are working on these days...

 

[cowman]

When I read an article like this I have to laugh too.

As a ranch manger, who operates in an area being considered for bison reintroduction my concern, not fear, is neither disease nor grazing competition. My concern would be bison bulls breeding my cows. No domesticated cattle breed contains even a single bull capable of fending off a rutting bison bull. And yes bison can and will breed domestic cattle if given the opportunity (ever heard of beefalo). Coincidentally, Bison rut during the same timetable that many of us northern ranchers are breeding our cattle.

So if I had to choose, I choose the rabbits. I have yet to hear of a beefabunny, cowbit or rabbow.

 

[Straight Arrow]

cowman, it seems to be a concern not well-founded. There are herds of cattle literally within eyeshot and nostril detection of Turner's Flying D buffalo bulls and there's yet to be an incidence of Gallatin area beefalo. Have you ever heard of any?

But coincidentally, Ted's Montana Grille does serve both pure bison steaks as well as Montana raised beef steaks. I truly believe as a cattleman you have more to be worried about than a horny bison bull.

 

[SixPoint]

[/
So if I had to choose, I choose the rabbits. I have yet to hear of a beefabunny, cowbit or rabbow.QUOTE]

This just made my whole day. Reminds me of the story of the biologist who wanted to castrate the coyotes so they would stop eating domestic sheep.

 

[cowman]

Straightarrow, how many cattle do you raise?
What knowledge do you possess of Turners operation?

I have been to Turners ranch, not simply aware that it exists, have spoken with a former ranch manager and discussed the special precautions that he had to take to prevent such incidences from occuring in order to avoid lawsuits from neighboring ranches.

I am friends with a rancher who runs registered angus less than 5 miles from the Turner ranch and his cattle being bred when the bison were brought in was a major concern which has lessened due to a lack of problems, prevented by Turners practices ( to his credit).

When your income is determined by the quality and integrity of your herd you tend to have such concerns. And keep in mind Turners ranch is privately held ground, not BLM ground where cattle and bison are sharing resources.

So, while you have every right to disagree with me, unless you are a far more experienced rancher than myself with first hand experience intermingling cattle and bison, you have no grounds to call my concerns "not well founded".

 

[cowman]

Incidentally, about 2 months ago bison were released on the Fort Peck Indian reservation.

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/st...new-home-montana-indian-reservation/18982563/

If you read this article you will find the bison were tested for brucellosis another reason this isnt a primary concern for ranchers. The behaviour of one of the bulls is.

As this issue relates to hunting and public access, atleast a half a dozen ranches in the surrounding area that were long time block management areas recinded their enrollment in the program, thereby denying public access to thousands of acres of privately held ground. We were not among them. The reason? Because FWP refused to offer any compensation to ranchers incurring losses directly caused by bison reintroduction, specifically, herd infiltration by bison and damages to land, fences, property...etc. So, apparently, other ranchers shared my concerns.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Straightarrow, how many cattle do you raise?

Admittedly, none. But that does not mean I am ignorant of the problems, concerns, and challenges of the cattle industry.

What knowledge do you possess of Turners operation?

Quite a bit, as I have been closely acquainted with folks working on the Flying D starting way back before it was even on Turner's radar screen. I live near the ranch and observe bison and wildlife conditions often and continuously. A number of years ago, I conducted an energy conservation audit on all ranch buildings. I am familiar with the fencing and other special precautions taken to prevent bison from roaming into adjacent cattle pastures. It's not really a new concept peculiar only to bison, as cattle owners have been taking similar precautions for a century and a half in Montana to keep cattle from roaming onto neighbors' places.

What makes you think that the Indian reservations and public land managers would not also take precautionary measures to prevent bison intrusion on neighbors.

My point is that cattle producers have real challenges to face, while the bison on public grounds issue is responded to with "boogeyman" notions and a paranoia not well-founded nor appropriately reacted to by affected landowners. Do you really think pulling out of Block Management by a few disgruntled parties is affective? It has only served to exacerbate the rift between hunters and landowners, and made the job of FWP more difficult. It has not provided a viable solution for any problem.

 

[cowman]

Straightarrow, my original point was simply to say that when cattle are sharing public grounds with bison and rabbits that of the two critters, rabbits are far less " disturbing" to the cattle thereby making the original topic laughable.

As a cattle producer, we have concerns that city dwellers rarely consider and when we voice our " concerns" we are accused of " boogeyman notions" and paranoia. Theres not a rancher I know who isnt aware of the " real challenges" that we face on a daily basis and it is us alone who know what those are. Being told what these challenges are by people with no experience in raising cattle is irritating to say the least.

Im no surgeon so I darn sure wouldnt try to tell him how to do his job or what he should be worrying about.

Try investing 5 to 10 thousand dollars on a bull whos purpose is to not only breed our cattle but to improve herd quality so that the general public has the highest quality beef available to them. Then have this investment killed, injured, or ran off by a far more agressive wild animal. I could be mistaken, but from a ranchers perspective, i believe the bison poses a greater threat to said bull ( investment) than does the rabbit. Common sense or paranoia?

This scenario is based upon the original topic, cattle, bison and bunnies sharing resources on public ground.

As for the issue of ranchers disengaging in block management. I NEVER said I condoned such drastic measures, only that it did in fact happen, as it most certainly did. However, it is their private land, bought and paid for so they have the right to do as they wish. Before chastizing them perhaps you should get their side of the story and I hate to be the one to inform you, FWP is not always right..

I wonder how often people choose to point fingers at ranchers, call us paranoid or tell us about boogeyman notions then get upset when we choose not to allow them hunting priveledges. So straightarrow, instead of insulting ranchers and accusing us of exaserbating landowner, hunter relations perhaps you should try listening and perhaps even befriending a few. Ranchers are much more willing to open their lands to hunters when hunters arent insulting them. Perhaps Im being paranoid, huh?

Im not on here to argue straightarrow so if you would like to continue what apparently has begun a debate feel free to pm me. This isnt a challenge by any means and Im a pretty easy fella to get along with when my feathers arent ruffled. But i dont see alot of point in having the rest of the members here watchin us bicker. Im open for discussion if you are, if not so be it, but I am done arguing.

 

[Straight Arrow]

cowman, I don't want to argue either. 'Just wanted to express a perspective about folks who don't ranch, but that doesn't mean they don't know anything or don't support ranchers. Most won't go along with the idea of bison on public land unless the precautionary measures are implemented to protect ranchers.

Please be aware that whenever you raise the idea of the threat from landowners about pulling out of Block Management because they are upset with FWP, it tends to raise the hackles of hunters .... and this is a hunting forum. I apologize for overreacting .... obviously it put a burr under your saddle.

 

[katqanna]

Cowman, the groups advocating a return of wild bison to the CMR area, for example, are not advocating a shared range with cattle. Some groups have been buying up grazing leases so there is no conflict on that front.

As to the bison you mentioned in the news link, that is a wild animal, not a docilely bred domestic bull, that was subjected to a horrendous experience which stresses them all out. I dont know if you have ever watched what happens with the bison hazing or the round ups at Stevens Creek capture facility, but the wild bison freak when subjected to those conditions, often hurting each other - survival mode. Once released and they get a chance to settle, that is not day to day behavior that you have to worry about a rampaging bull bison.

I have been out in the wild, in their territory, photographed and filmed some at a distance. Once when I was documenting the Hoppe domestic sheep situation from an overview, then began hiking back to the hill where I came from, a bull bison had crossed my path. I was on the phone, reporting to someone that I got the photos and laughed about a comment made, to hear a snort, look up and see the bison. My laughter was probably not normal sound for out there. His tail was raised, I knew the signs of a disturbed bison, changed my course, detoured around some big ass boulders in case I might need them and waited a bit as he settled down, continued his nomadic grazing.They are wildlife, not domestic cattle, that goes for a huge bull elk or a bull moose or a bear.

Now, as to threats to your cattle, while researching the Montana brucellosis infection cases, the very first one in 2007, involving the Morgans in Bridger , MT, there was an article about Corriente cattle that came up with an interview from Jim Morgan, " 'I got into the crosses by accident,' Morgan told me. 'I had a herd of Corrientes and a herd of black cows. Once the Corriente bull finished his side of the fence, he jumped over and went after all the Angus cows. I just couldn’t keep him in.' "

That type of situation is not limited to one's own fences and cattle. In speaking with FWP from the area, there have been bison spotted at the CMR, domestic bison, not reservation bison. The livestock owner, south of the CMR does not keep good fences and these bison routinely get out and graze on those lands. This has been an ongoing problem with that owner. Or how about Toby Dahl of United Property Owners of Montana's comments on his own cattle? - Runamuk, which will play host to benefit trail ride next weekend, serves up real ranching getaway.

" 'Fences are just an idea for these cattle,' Toby said. Some days, he and Rutherford rounded up three or four cattle that were in the wrong pasture or on the wrong ranch only to have them break through another fence. One neighbor who maintains a nine-hole golf course on his acreage called to say a couple of heifers were on his fairway and would Toby please come get them out before they marked his course with dung. But, by the time Toby and Rutherford rode over, the cattle were long gone."

 

[cowman]

I apologize, in no way did I mean to use landowners retracting from block management as a threat. I mentioned it because it was a direct result of the bison reintroduction program and a failure to acknowledge the concerns of affected ranchers, myself not included. The statement was only intended to be an example of what can happen when ranchers concerns are dismissed or trivialized. It was absolutely not intended as a threat.

I did, however, realize immediately, after posting it that it might upset a few fellas who may not have been aware it happened and Im not saavy enough to figure out how to erase or edit something once its posted. I know cows, not computers.

Personally, I felt the ones who did pull out overreacted but then again thats their perogative and there are two sides to every story.

Incidentally, the " burr under my saddle" ( well put by the way ) is gone, no hard feelings.