BOHNTR
Well-known member
Thanks, gents.....it's a tough time for my profession. When I started over 28 years ago it was much different than it is today. I feel for these young men/women just getting started.
Public Safety/Police Officers
- Thread starter utah400elk
- Start date
Bugle 'Em In
Well-known member
Prayers to LEO and their families. Keep safe!
Re: the media....very seldom do I see the msm report on good deeds or events. Chaos "sells" unfortunately. Of course I don't have stats to back up good stories vs. chaos / bad stories, but it certainly is my perception.
Re: the media....very seldom do I see the msm report on good deeds or events. Chaos "sells" unfortunately. Of course I don't have stats to back up good stories vs. chaos / bad stories, but it certainly is my perception.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Zach, there aren't a lot of solutions to be had.
For starters, living in a culture that makes firearms this accessible, they will fall into the hands of insane people. When that happens, innocent people die, just that simple. Whether its LEO's or kids on a playground...its the cost of doing business in a free society. It cant be stopped, it cant be avoided, unless you're a fan of infringing on second amendment rights. We just have to learn to accept it, and move on. Like I've stated, all we can do is mourn the loss of life and bury the dead from these type of deals. Prosecute the offenders to fullest extent of the law.
Nothing more to do with that.
I also don't believe that its healthy to make every single issue about race. An evil person is an evil person. Sure, they ALL have an excuse as to why they went off the deep end. Bottom line, its just that, an excuse...truth is they have probably been a full bubble off plumb for a long damn time.
I think also that accepting and trying to treat mental illness is a potential solution. Some are going to slip through the cracks, not realize they have a problem, or are even be aware they do have a problem. But, I don't believe, as a country, we are doing all we can to diagnos and treat mental illness.
I think continued training for LEO's, perhaps better screening prior to hiring (I know its pretty exhaustive now, but everything can be improved on). Maybe even increasing LEO pay to attract the very best. Invest heavily in good officers, use their skills to train others, etc. Continue to work on improving relationships between officers and the communities they work in. Lots of things can be learned over a cup of coffee as well as a lot of trust. Not sure of your community, but in mine, I don't think many people (me included) know a single officer here by name. I haven't taken the time to get to know them...and vice versa.
I also think that people making stupid comments, like members of the media being happy that LEO's died, asking where the outrage is for Black on White crime, etc. etc. is harmful. Its a failed attempt, at trying to box up the blame for a heinous crime, into some tiddy little bundle that fits nicely into racism, biases, and an agenda...none of that is doing jack chit to help address the problem. I don't differentiate any "side" having a monopoly on this behavior, just that it has to stop.
Beings how I answered the question, maybe you can provide your insight on solutions.
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My deepest thoughts and prayers for all effected by this tragedy! It is sickening as all heck to read the threat assessments of recent and those emerging... Groups via social media posing acts that directly reflect ISIS, etc... Sick...
The blame game... who to blame...? It is such a deep rooted social issue it is beyond a specific blame. The issues are sooo interwoven it would take a literal act of Congress to begin to separate the issues in order to begin mending the issues, if even possible.
The blame game... who to blame...? It is such a deep rooted social issue it is beyond a specific blame. The issues are sooo interwoven it would take a literal act of Congress to begin to separate the issues in order to begin mending the issues, if even possible.
Wow, better training for the cops is going to help/fix a broken, fatherless, I'm owed something culture? With that essay you posted in response to Zach, its obvious you've only lived in Montana and Wyoming with all the rich cultural diversity that both States have to offer. Maybe I could send my next door neighbor Tyrese to you, to raise and mentor instead of me making him another innocent victim of white hate for trespassing in my backyard and being punished unjustly in the court system
Sorry I'm not known for being very PC, I have to live in the real world
LEO's my hat is off to you! Have nothing but respect for what you guys do, THANK YOU!!!!!!
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Maybe you should move to North Idaho...may fit your, "not very PC" agenda better.
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Zach
Well-known member
It's pretty simple, stop pushing God out of everything.
airlocksniffer
Member
What we lack in this country and world is empathy. People grow up and live in very different circumstances. Not everybody can tug up the 'ol bootstraps and be successful. If you haven't grown up poor or minority or in a cycle of physical, sexual or substance abuse you can't possibly understand the struggle some people go through. Yeah, I grew up in all three and went on to be a first generation college grad with a good job and a wonderful family. It's not that easy for everybody. Maybe if we all stop for a second and empathize people and quit trying to place blame on everybody we can start to heal. I don't typically read this website I found this article on but I found it pretty refreshing, especially coming from what I understand is a right-leaning site:
http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/07/08/uncomfortable-reason-came-dallas-yesterday/
Thank you to all the LEO's who are out there every day. To all the people dealing with the struggle, keep your head up. It can get better.
http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/07/08/uncomfortable-reason-came-dallas-yesterday/
Thank you to all the LEO's who are out there every day. To all the people dealing with the struggle, keep your head up. It can get better.
James Riley
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,821
I have found the answer in life is often (not always, but often) counter-intuitive.
In the instant case, violence can indeed be the answer, but so can love. The counter-intuitive part, difficult as it is, should be applied inside one's own individual heart. If you are leaning one way, you might best ought to be leaning the other.
To avoid getting to a point of violence though, or to having counter-intuitive struggles in the heart, we have to start early, with a firm but loving hand; not only with others, but with ourselves.
Like I said in another thread, people are like horses and mules. If your inclination is to hard-break, you might get better results with a softer hand. If you're a soft touch, you might want to be a little firmer so they don't take advantage of you. But if you beat a horse you get a beat horse. Someday he might try and take you at the worst possible point on the trail.
In the end, if you want a close, hard working team, it takes good leadership and a common goal. We have not had either since WWII. Maybe the Moon Shot. Without a common goal we can't find leaders and we can't be horses or mules; we become cats. You can't herd cats and no real leader wants to try.
In the mean time it might be best to spend more time working inside our own individual heart, leaning against our own inclination, with our own firm but loving hand. The times will someday give rise to a leader/goal but I don't think we'll find either at the rodeo clown show.
In the instant case, violence can indeed be the answer, but so can love. The counter-intuitive part, difficult as it is, should be applied inside one's own individual heart. If you are leaning one way, you might best ought to be leaning the other.
To avoid getting to a point of violence though, or to having counter-intuitive struggles in the heart, we have to start early, with a firm but loving hand; not only with others, but with ourselves.
Like I said in another thread, people are like horses and mules. If your inclination is to hard-break, you might get better results with a softer hand. If you're a soft touch, you might want to be a little firmer so they don't take advantage of you. But if you beat a horse you get a beat horse. Someday he might try and take you at the worst possible point on the trail.
In the end, if you want a close, hard working team, it takes good leadership and a common goal. We have not had either since WWII. Maybe the Moon Shot. Without a common goal we can't find leaders and we can't be horses or mules; we become cats. You can't herd cats and no real leader wants to try.
In the mean time it might be best to spend more time working inside our own individual heart, leaning against our own inclination, with our own firm but loving hand. The times will someday give rise to a leader/goal but I don't think we'll find either at the rodeo clown show.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Thanks for posting that, Ken. We need more discussion like this. I support that his news station allowed him to call out the stupidity of some politicians with future ambitions oversimplifying a very complex problem. I struggle to figure which is worse; the politicians who wants the quick fix to a problem centuries in the making by advocating stricter gun laws and stiffer sentencing, or the politicians who cannot resist the urge to make these tragedies a political stair upon which they are more than willing to climb in their race to the top of the power ladder.
I'm not smart enough to have answers. I know that I am sick of people blaming it all on law enforcement, people whose daily work and risks are probably the glue that is keeping this package from exploding. I am sick of people ignoring the plight of those left behind in this country and thinking the entire group was left behind because they chose to be left behind. I'm tired of people accepting that having large segments of our society lose or be born into conditions without hopes and dreams that represent America, whether that is urban America, rural America, or the places that most influenced by upbringing, the Indian Reservations of this country.
Since we have elected politicians that think banning firearms will solve poverty, low education achievement, and somehow increase employment, we are to blame.
Since we have elected politicians who think that economic globalization is fine, so long as only 25% of American are left behind while 74% of Americans are treading water and 1% of Americans are benefiting, we are to blame.
Since we have elected politicians who think that police are the enemy, we are to blame.
Since we have elected politicians who think that we can solve this issue by building more prisons and increasing sentencing guidelines for crimes most likely to be committed by poor, under/unemployed groups, we are to blame.
If we fall for the bullshitting politicians and public figures who think they will solve this with feel good pieces of legislation, then we are to blame. It took centuries of decisions to get where we now find ourselves, with a large part of America just struggling to get by, with a growing sector falling further behind. There is a reason Sanders and Trump have so much appeal right now. It is an expression of some much bigger concerns about what Americans want America to be. And as imperfect as both of their messages are, the fact that they have such avid following, tells us something is amiss.
I have no idea where this is going, but law enforcement has my support in all instances, until such time an investigation shows otherwise. I have no idea how I will vote this November, given none of my election choices this fall have the spine, intellect, or leadership to start us down a better path.
Yet, I think we will find a path forward. It will not come from the mouthpieces of a broken two-party political system. Like all great American ideas and efforts, it will come from the people, in spite of the hurdles thrown up the politically ambitious. When Americans as a group decide they want change, that they want a better future, it happens. It has happened for 240 years. It will happen again, so long as we don't fall for the bullshit spewed the talking heads of TV and radio, so long as we ignore the political opportunists who are like hyenas searching for any wounded carcass upon which to feed. We will get there.
I do know this; the bad ideas that got us into this mess are not the ideas that will get us out of this mess.
I just got home last night from the wilds of northern Idaho, where life is much simpler. I heard about the Dallas shootings on the radio. Last night and this morning I've been reading a number of articles on the Dallas shootings, as well as the incendiary Minneapolis and Baton Rouge shootings. Here are my simple thoughts, for whatever they are worth and whatever you paid for them:
1. Buzz has good points about training. While nearly every law enforcement agency in the country has some sort of field training program, not all field training officers are created equal. I've seen some that are abysmal, and only serve to perpetuate an image and/or reality of bullying officers. Sometimes the selection of the field training officers is reflective if the culture of the agency as a whole, sometimes it is a remnant of previous culture that is hard to work out of an agency.
2. There is a reality to corruption in law enforcement. It is impossible to eliminate it. However, it can also be VERY difficult to bring it to light. I have seen firsthand what happens when you have officers of rank that lack ethics and integrity. I have also seen the tremendous cost that can be had for those that attempt to bring right to the wrongs. Think of your career being the equivalent to Iwo Jima. Sometimes planting your flag comes at great cost to individuals and their families. That's not to say that doing the right thing is always easy, but I will say with 100% certainty that standing up to corruption in law enforcement is absolutely brutal, demoralizing, stressful, and frustrating to no end.
3. It is very difficult for the general public to relate to the dangers of law enforcement. Simple fact. Until some of the mouthpieces on either side begin to bridge this gap that misunderstanding will remain strong as ever.
4. Many crimes are not prosecuted as they should be. However, I think better prosecution is only a piece of the puzzle. Treatment/rehabilitation is a vastly underfunded and overlooked component. Dealing with a person who is suffering from mental illness has all the making of juggling with nitroglycerin. Until you've experienced it in a law enforcement capacity, you will have a difficult time understanding what a game changer it is in use of force decisions.
5. It is beyond time for cultures to take responsibility for changing the futures of their kids. Whether you are black, Native American, Ukrainian, etc. it is high time for those people to take ownership in the future of their kids. I have worked firsthand in a reservation environment, and it's heartbreaking to see the oppression of future opportunities that comes from their OWN people. It is heartbreaking that inner city youth turn to gang culture because it provides them the sense of family that they have never had. Why go to college when you can make money dealing drugs. How do you fix the economic oppression that is a reality? I've witnessed firsthand the struggles that some of these people encounter when they are trying to get their life right, and at every turn and every screw up the system just beats them down to a point of hopelessness.
6. There is a difficult and fine line between holding officers accountable and giving them the latitude to effectively do their job. Use of force case law hasn't changed much in the last 25 years since Graham v. Connor further clarified the benchmark established by Tennessee v. Garner. Officers are allowed to react to what they see and perceive at the time. They don't have to know that Tamir Rice had a toy gun. They can't afford to. Not with real guns being made with orange tips on the barrels. The rules have changed drastically, and it is a very difficult time to work in law enforcement. It is a very difficult time to train officers as to what they can and cannot do and have them be confident in themselves. There isn't enough time and funding to adequately train everyone in use of force in general. However, it might well be some of the best money invested.
7. I am not an Obama hater. I think he has been an average to slightly above average president in many areas. I am very disappointed in the fact that racial divides have increased dramatically in the eight years that he has held office. I am even more disappointed in the future with Hillary or Trump at the wheel, as I don't see things improving with either of them. I think they will become markedly worse under Trump. I am disappointed with remarks made about Trayvon Martin, or the events at Ferguson. Some events are very legitimately about race. However, the Black Lives Matter group is like the boy who cried wolf. It's hard to take them seriously when they denounce everything as racial oppression. Sometimes things are a legitimate example of someone being a dipshit and not obeying police orders when they should be, and they pay the piper for that. However, I personally fear that the Minneapolis shooting may be a very real example of the racial divide and fears based on race and appearance. That said, if you cultivate your appearance to mimic that of the hip hop gang culture you have to understand that it WILL change things. I couldn't walk into an inner city black neighborhood wearing Cliven Bundy attire and not expect to be regarded as a threat.
8. Not everything is a conspiracy theory. I read a statement by a minority group advocate who stated that allowing officers 72 hours to complete a report is merely an opportunity for them to "cook up a matching story" in regards to a shooting. Science has shown that your memory after a critical incident (i.e. a shooting) will have greatest recall after 2-3 sleep cycles. It is pointless for an officer to write a report about a shooting immediately after the event. He/She won't remember shit, and they will contradict themselves greatly with what they recall after a couple of days. The point I am trying to make here is that both sides must be objective. I'm sure there are realities within minority cultures that I will never comprehend as a middle class white guy. There are also realities within the law enforcement world that civilians will have a difficult time ever understanding. Sometimes you just have to say "okay, I'll take your word for it" and be okay with that. Not everyone is trying to screw you.
9. Grace, compassion, and empathy would go a long ways.
God bless the families in Minneapolis, Baton Rouge, and Dallas whose lives were forever changed this week. May they find the path of truth and healing, and not be swayed by hate and rhetoric.
1. Buzz has good points about training. While nearly every law enforcement agency in the country has some sort of field training program, not all field training officers are created equal. I've seen some that are abysmal, and only serve to perpetuate an image and/or reality of bullying officers. Sometimes the selection of the field training officers is reflective if the culture of the agency as a whole, sometimes it is a remnant of previous culture that is hard to work out of an agency.
2. There is a reality to corruption in law enforcement. It is impossible to eliminate it. However, it can also be VERY difficult to bring it to light. I have seen firsthand what happens when you have officers of rank that lack ethics and integrity. I have also seen the tremendous cost that can be had for those that attempt to bring right to the wrongs. Think of your career being the equivalent to Iwo Jima. Sometimes planting your flag comes at great cost to individuals and their families. That's not to say that doing the right thing is always easy, but I will say with 100% certainty that standing up to corruption in law enforcement is absolutely brutal, demoralizing, stressful, and frustrating to no end.
3. It is very difficult for the general public to relate to the dangers of law enforcement. Simple fact. Until some of the mouthpieces on either side begin to bridge this gap that misunderstanding will remain strong as ever.
4. Many crimes are not prosecuted as they should be. However, I think better prosecution is only a piece of the puzzle. Treatment/rehabilitation is a vastly underfunded and overlooked component. Dealing with a person who is suffering from mental illness has all the making of juggling with nitroglycerin. Until you've experienced it in a law enforcement capacity, you will have a difficult time understanding what a game changer it is in use of force decisions.
5. It is beyond time for cultures to take responsibility for changing the futures of their kids. Whether you are black, Native American, Ukrainian, etc. it is high time for those people to take ownership in the future of their kids. I have worked firsthand in a reservation environment, and it's heartbreaking to see the oppression of future opportunities that comes from their OWN people. It is heartbreaking that inner city youth turn to gang culture because it provides them the sense of family that they have never had. Why go to college when you can make money dealing drugs. How do you fix the economic oppression that is a reality? I've witnessed firsthand the struggles that some of these people encounter when they are trying to get their life right, and at every turn and every screw up the system just beats them down to a point of hopelessness.
6. There is a difficult and fine line between holding officers accountable and giving them the latitude to effectively do their job. Use of force case law hasn't changed much in the last 25 years since Graham v. Connor further clarified the benchmark established by Tennessee v. Garner. Officers are allowed to react to what they see and perceive at the time. They don't have to know that Tamir Rice had a toy gun. They can't afford to. Not with real guns being made with orange tips on the barrels. The rules have changed drastically, and it is a very difficult time to work in law enforcement. It is a very difficult time to train officers as to what they can and cannot do and have them be confident in themselves. There isn't enough time and funding to adequately train everyone in use of force in general. However, it might well be some of the best money invested.
7. I am not an Obama hater. I think he has been an average to slightly above average president in many areas. I am very disappointed in the fact that racial divides have increased dramatically in the eight years that he has held office. I am even more disappointed in the future with Hillary or Trump at the wheel, as I don't see things improving with either of them. I think they will become markedly worse under Trump. I am disappointed with remarks made about Trayvon Martin, or the events at Ferguson. Some events are very legitimately about race. However, the Black Lives Matter group is like the boy who cried wolf. It's hard to take them seriously when they denounce everything as racial oppression. Sometimes things are a legitimate example of someone being a dipshit and not obeying police orders when they should be, and they pay the piper for that. However, I personally fear that the Minneapolis shooting may be a very real example of the racial divide and fears based on race and appearance. That said, if you cultivate your appearance to mimic that of the hip hop gang culture you have to understand that it WILL change things. I couldn't walk into an inner city black neighborhood wearing Cliven Bundy attire and not expect to be regarded as a threat.
8. Not everything is a conspiracy theory. I read a statement by a minority group advocate who stated that allowing officers 72 hours to complete a report is merely an opportunity for them to "cook up a matching story" in regards to a shooting. Science has shown that your memory after a critical incident (i.e. a shooting) will have greatest recall after 2-3 sleep cycles. It is pointless for an officer to write a report about a shooting immediately after the event. He/She won't remember shit, and they will contradict themselves greatly with what they recall after a couple of days. The point I am trying to make here is that both sides must be objective. I'm sure there are realities within minority cultures that I will never comprehend as a middle class white guy. There are also realities within the law enforcement world that civilians will have a difficult time ever understanding. Sometimes you just have to say "okay, I'll take your word for it" and be okay with that. Not everyone is trying to screw you.
9. Grace, compassion, and empathy would go a long ways.
God bless the families in Minneapolis, Baton Rouge, and Dallas whose lives were forever changed this week. May they find the path of truth and healing, and not be swayed by hate and rhetoric.
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JWP58
Banned
Ya sure it was a "wreck less" statement. I guess just as "wreck less" as the false narrative that a white Officer was involved in the Minn. incident (p.s. it was a Hispanic Officer...I guess CNN missed that nugget of info....they also missed the part about the deceased being stopped because he matched the description of an armed robbery suspect from a prior incident....NOT because he was black, silly facts). You know one of the incidents the shooter in Dallas advised negotiators that upset him. He was upset about incidents that haven't even been investigated, facts haven't even been released yet. Sure the narrative has already been written by the media, but that's cool because facts don't matter.
Im assuming you'd care if the media reported lies and false narratives about the NFS, wouldn't you? Especially when hate groups like the "black lives matter" group end up chanting "what do we want? dead cops! when do we want them? Now!" and "pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" at their peaceful protests based off of the information (ie lies) sold by the media. (See "hands up don't shoot", which was proven by forensic evidence and eye witness testimony to be a lie).
But go ahead insinuate im a bigot and racist because I want the media and our President to wait for actual facts before using inflammatory language in regards to Officer involved shootings. Ya I guess that's "wreck less". Go a head and tell me to move to coeur d'Alene.
Im sorry, but you may think your holier than thou attitude is cute, but its rather annoying especially considering you don't know what you're talking about. For instance, tell me about this continued training LEO's need, please educate me. Tell me what type of training I need, please I'd be interested to know what the expert thinks.
Sorry I'd like to say Im glad Mr. Lemon demanded people wait for facts to come out about the Dallas incident while Officers were dying on gurneys, I'd hate for the wrong info to get out there and stain the "black lives matter" crew's reputation. He turned into an actual journalist for a couple of hours.
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Zach
Well-known member
IMO this is a great article about what is going on in our country right now.
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/mi...s-now-is-not-the-time-to-mince-words-n2190747
But, as 1 user here put it, I'm just a bible thumping prude. What do I know.
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/mi...s-now-is-not-the-time-to-mince-words-n2190747
But, as 1 user here put it, I'm just a bible thumping prude. What do I know.
Good article, and I think some very good points. I've yet to see a radical activist go downtown in Chicago and shoot up a bunch of Crips for killing young black men, or for abusing young black women.
Zach
Well-known member
Speaking of media liability, here's another article I tend to agree with.
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/07/12/the-war-on-cops-n2191290
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/07/12/the-war-on-cops-n2191290
TrickyTross
Active member
Well said
2ski
Well-known member
You had a lot of very good well-thought out things to say. But I really wanted to highlight this. Its very profound and you don't really hear anyone say it. There was once a book written called "It takes a Village". Don't recall who wrote it. But she's probably in the news quite a bit. But you could take that phrase, "it takes a village" and apply it to communities fixing their own problems when able.
Its always up to someone else to fix the problem. That goes for all walks of life. YOU, ME, AND THE OTHER GUY. US. ALL OF US. I can't emphasize that enough. Everyone whines that the other guy is to blame on "what's wrong with this country". We really need to spend more time than we do looking inward. Randy touched on it as well. Great post by the way. How does the phrase from "The Usual Suspects" go...."the smartest thing the devil ever did was convince the world he didn't exist". YOUR politicians have you up in arms so much that the other side is evil while hiding the things they aren't doing right. So much time is spent talking about how everyone is wrong and none spent listening and coming up with solutions. All the while demanding that any solution made has to be PERFECT. No solution will ever be perfect, but something is better than nothing. How many times in the course of this thread has anyone said that someone with an opposing view made a good point? Now watch your response. As you read that, you tried to think whether or not "the other guy" said you had a good point. Your primary response should have been, "did I value his opinion and listen to it without immediately trying to say he was wrong". But it wasn't.
A few things pertaining to the topic presented in this thread:
I know a few LEO's and I respect them a ton. But if you believe that all of them are top notch, I have some ocean front property in AZ to sell you..... Quite frankly, it would be easy for an LEO to get an attitude of absolute power. And what do we know about absolute power. It corrupts absolutely. I am not in any way shape or form saying all cops are bad. Most cops are good. But there are bad people in every walk of life. Bad hunters. Bad teachers. Bad nurses....ect. Just the way it is. Every officer involved shooting should be handled in the same way that if you shot me it should be handled. With some suspicion yet still innocent until proven guilty. Both sides need to not jump to conclusions. Black lives matter, if it was a black person, that it was a racist thing, and a lot of other people, that it was justified because it was a cop.
As far as the media. It sucks. But WE drive it. What stories do you click on? The one about the school kids cleaning the highway? Or the one about the Democrat's cigar he and his staffer..."used" in the White House"? The Republican that had an affair with someone? You click on the scandal first. The media takes pleasure from scandal the same way your wife takes pleasure in gossip. But you don't bitch about that because that's in your house. The media. That's someone else. Gossips get off not on bad things happening, but on telling other people. Its all about attention. The attention is on them. Think of it like your daughter posting selfies(she does). A selfie of her reading a book....a few likes. A selfie of her doing that duck face. More likes. A selfie of her in a bikini(ok, not every daughter is doing this)....even I'm liking this is she's over 18. But in the media, the attention, measured in clicks and ratings, can be used to generate advertising which supports a paycheck. So did you read that article by some windbag that says a lot of BS and you know this and you read the article so you could pat yourself on the back and tell yourself that guy's an idiot. Congrats. You just helped him get paid. And he knows it. Don't click on his website. Let his idiot followers help him get paid. I truly do not believe Rush and Maddow are as big of windbags as they appear. They know what drives ratings and they know there are idiots that will believe them and there are idiots on the other side that will listen just to see what idiot thing was said so they can refute it. Rush and Rachael thank you for your help in getting paid.
Lastly, as far as the post about God being taken out of everything. I believe in God. I can be a better Christian. I believe in a God that is kind and loving. I don't believe in a God that wants us to force other people to believe in Him. I believe in a God that wants us to SHOW others why to believe in Him. I don't think that comes from putting God into our government.
One man's opinion.
2ski
Well-known member
A quote from an article I was reading the morning from W.
"During his speech, Bush said, “Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions"
"During his speech, Bush said, “Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions"
Zach
Well-known member
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