public land access via hopping a survey marker

[JoseCuervo]

It would be a good case to try. I don't think they could enforce you trespassing if you never were on the other land. I am not sure what novel legal theory they would argue that says standing on two pieces of public property means you are trespassing.

 

[1_pointer]

It could boild down to the definition of a 'corner'. How big/small is a corner. Say it's considered the size of a pin head. How can you get across that without impeding on the other two pieces of property that make the corner?

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

In state where "he said / she said" conflicts like this occur should'nt the Sportsman be pro-active in asking a law be clarified or created to give Sportsman access to "Their Land". I would say a law with a Radius of the corners, so no one has to be so finite in the crossing or have the corner marked so the sportsman can pass through say two post with BLM signs attesting to the fact it is a legal crossing. There ya got my 2 cents. John

 

[JoseCuervo]

It could boild down to the definition of a 'corner'. How big/small is a corner. Say it's considered the size of a pin head. How can you get across that without impeding on the other two pieces of property that make the corner?

I am guessing you didn't too so hot in geometry? Two lines intersect at a single point. There is no "how big" when you have two lines intersect.

 

[Tom]

It would be a good case to try. I don't think they could enforce you trespassing if you never were on the other land. I am not sure what novel legal theory they would argue that says standing on two pieces of public property means you are trespassing.

Jose, the legal argument would be the common law interpretation that, the landowner has control over the space above his land that he uses when he uses his land. Like, do you think you could hover in a helicopter over someones backyard at about 3ft and be legal? You wouldn't be on their land, but you'd prevent them from using their own land, that's the basis for it being illegal, right?

Hey, here's another version of the question, this might actually be illegal though. Say there's a big something or other that you have a tag for standing accross the corner. You don't cross the corner, but your bullet does, when you shoot the thing. Now you have to got get a chopper to tag it, so you do. Is that legal? If there was a fence, some states have laws you can't shoot over a private fence. What if there's no fence, is there a law you can't shoot across the corner of someone's property?

 

[1_pointer]

Two lines intersect at a single point.

I know the survey markers (yes, the very official ones) I set had a mark made with a punch that was way bigger than an infinitely small point (ie two lines crossing)...

 

[JoseCuervo]

I know the survey markers (yes, the very official ones) I set had a mark made with a punch that was way bigger than an infinitely small point (ie two lines crossing)...

How big was the center of the punch?

 

[Washington Hunter]

I could see where corner jumping might be difficult if there happened to be a 4 way fence intersection there. There'd be no way to get from public to public without climbing on a private fence. I suppose if nobody actually saw you doing it you could just say you hopped over the fence without touching it. That may be hard to believe but let them prove that you didn't.

Either way the idea that stepping from one section of public land to another section of public land is illegal is just stupid, and it's just another way the ranchers are trying to keep the public off PUBLIC land. |oo

In my opinion even if a monument has not been set to identify a particular section corner, it should still be ok for one to "corner jump" using nothing more than a hand held GPS unit to find that corner. How are they going to prosecute a person for doing that? The private landowner himself wouldn't know any better the exact position of that corner, than a guy with a GPS, if it has never been surveyed and the corner identified.

Of course you would have to be pretty familiar with how to use GPS to find a corner in order to test that theory. Being a land surveyor myself, I think I am going to start looking specifically for landlocked sections of public land to hunt where I can put this to the test.

 

[TheTone]

I'm not sure on Idaho's thoughts on corner jumping, its not something that has ever been presented to me. I'll ask someone who should know and get as official an answer as I can.

 

[1_pointer]

WH- Being a surveyor, what level of accuracy would the handheld GPS have to have to assure you that you won't be crossing the private property? Why is it just ranchers that are keeping you off public land? IIRC it was some rich female singer that won a landmark case involving public lands access through private lands in ID...

PS- IMO, it is for these types of situations that some states (UT and ID) have the rules they do in regards to having to post private property.

 

[elk_hunter]

I could see where corner jumping might be difficult if there happened to be a 4 way fence intersection there.

No, silly...simply make sure you carry your compact, expandable aluminum ladder.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Hey, that's a great idea!

 

[Washington Hunter]

WH- Being a surveyor, what level of accuracy would the handheld GPS have to have to assure you that you won't be crossing the private property?

Just regular, non-survey grade GPS units are damn good! When searching for a corner, I find they will generally get me within 10 feet of the monument marking that corner. But you still have to have a good coordinate, or have a known corner saved in your GPS unit that you can "go to." And then you would also have to know the bearing (which is almost always NOT exactly due north, south, east, or west) and the exact distance from that other corner.

But my thinking is that you really don't need to know exactly where that corner might be if it were to be set by a surveyor. If there's no fence corner and nothing else that's ever been set to monument that corner, then I can go out there with my GPS and come as close to where the actual corner is as anybody can without doing an actual survey, including the landowner. My question is how can they assure ME (or the sheriff) that I DID trespass if the landowner doesn't even know where the corner is

 

[1_pointer]

I agree that the handhelds are very accurate. While monumenting some NA reservation lands I set my cheapy Etrex on the big GPS reciever and was within 3 feet. However, three feet IMO is not close enough to be sure that I wouldn't be trespassing.

Nearly all the corners I set were monumented with rocks, finding them and knowing what they were are a whole 'nuther ball game. I bet we only found about half of the rock corners and those we did find were off by a few feet. In those cases which is the true 'corner'? I throw that out there only for the sake of argument. In states that have laws against corner hopping or crossing unposted private land I just stay away from the 'fuzzy' areas. Not worth the hassle to me...

 

[Washington Hunter]

Well, by "rock corner" I'm assuming you're meaning it's the corner set by the original surveyors working for the Government Land Office (GLO) which of course is now the BLM. In that case, that IS the corner. Doesn't matter if it's a few feet or 200 feet off from what your GPS unit says. However my point was that if the landowner there had nothing in the ground to mark the section corner, and even if that "rock corner" was still there but hadn't been found by anybody after the original surveyors set it, then how are they going to prove that you were trespassing? Not that I make a habit out of hunting in "fuzzy" areas, but it's just kind of a hypothetical question.

 

[JoseCuervo]

In states that have laws against corner hopping or crossing unposted private land I just stay away from the 'fuzzy' areas. Not worth the hassle to me...

It is a sad day when our Nation's youth voluntarily surrender their rights, and, more importantly, their idealism for the sake of boredom and security.

 

[1_pointer]

It is a sad day when our Nation's youth voluntarily surrender their rights, and, more importantly, their idealism for the sake of boredom and security.

Yeah, I've surrendered my rights and ideals because I don't want to chance worrying about a tresspass violation and stay a few hundred yards where I know I can be. Sorry to have let you and this great Nation of ours down...

PS- Am I still considered a youth??