Proposal to eliminate non-resident sheep tags in New Mexico

[BuzzH]

This ongoing pathway to License Plate Tribalism is a mistake.

The "resident children" line is a red herring spoken to draw an emotional response with the idea that it is irrefutable, as it's "for the kids." This is flawed logic.

My child has a much better chance of growing up as a hunter, learning new areas, and gaining an overall love of our sport with the ability to participate in several Western states, and I'm okay with my state reciprocating.

Adding a relative few NR tags back into the R pool will make no appreciable difference in our hunting opportunity; but if I no longer have the ability to take my daughter deer or bear hunting in Idaho, Barbary hunting in NM, elk hunting in Montana, and antelope hunting in WY, I have made a gigantic impact on my ability to raise her as a hunter.

The negative impact of all Western states cutting off NR hunting, which is the logical conclusion of the path some people are proposing, far outweighs the positive impact of Utah adding a few tags back into the R pool.

This is an imbecilic idea that needs to die a quick death.

90-10 is a fair split...

 

[BuzzH]

*Yawn*

He never deserved the tag, no one does. Should have applied in other states before you started your campaign to end opportunities.

Totally agree...non residents deserve even less.

 

[SummitsCalling]

Totally agree...non residents deserve even less.

Once they come for your hunting opportunities, don't ask for help. You'll prob be long gone by then.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree that it is more than just direct license sales. What percentage of those residents actually contribute time and attend meetings? They are likely a very active minority, just like other western states.

So there are zero wildlife conservation organizations conducting projects that benefit sheep in NM which are partially funded by non-resident hunters? I find that hard to believe, particularly by the WSF response. But I guess it is possible.

Clearly residents should have a significant advantage in the draw, but I still believe it is reasonable to maintain some portion of opportunity for NRs. Race to zero doesn’t benefit hunters overall.

I find it just a tad hypocritical for an organization that has pushed for auction governors sheep tags in nearly every state, that profits hugely from them, pretending to care about the hunter of average means.

You want to see true colors, ask the wsf to start opposing governors sheep tags.

They will defend those tags long after every other nr sheep opportunity is gone.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

There's no what about anything...I pointed out the exact problem and what's causing your fretting about the NAM...

50 sheep tags reserved for residents is giving access and a dream perhaps turning into a reality, for nearly every resident in that state who is otherwise being crushed by the fat wallets, ostrich cowboy boots, and neckties of those cruising the sheep show.

Understand your point is that NM resident hunters are being crushed by wealthy NR hunters. But that is their own fault, they allowed the outfitters to carve out a portion of the tags for their wealthy clients. Fat wallets, ostrich cowboy boots (I love mine!) and neckties (bolo only right?) is primarily represented in the outfitter draw. DIY non-resident hunters aren’t the enemy. Will be interesting to see how this turns out, lots (NRs included) would love to see a relook of the outfitter draw.

 

[BuzzH]

Understand your point is that NM resident hunters are being crushed by wealthy NR hunters. But that is their own fault, they allowed the outfitters to carve out a portion of the tags for their wealthy clients. Fat wallets, ostrich cowboy boots (I love mine!) and neckties (bolo only) is primarily represented in the outfitter draw. DIY non-resident hunters aren’t the enemy. Will be interesting to see how this turns out, lots (NRs included) would love to see a relook of the outfitter draw.

Maybe they're tired of the wild sheep foundation meddling in their wild sheep management.

Maybe the residents care more about spending money on elk, pronghorn, and deer...you know animals that more r and nr hunters actually get to hunt way more often, than a sheep that only 50 people a year get to hunt.

Maybe they're tired of the outfitters, lots of problems they may feel they can solve by changing sheep allocations.

Their wildlife, their choice, and I dont have a grievance with their decisions

 

[BuzzH]

Once they come for your hunting opportunities, don't ask for help. You'll prob be long gone by then.

I'm way more concerned about why pronghorn in Wyoming are doing so shitty right now that we've cut 35,000 tags than 7 nrs a year not getting to hunt sheep in new Mexico.

Hunting is not going to survive or not due to 7 nr sheep tags.

 

[Oak]

Important to note that NM residents are just saying “follow our own statutes.” This seems like an easy decision for the NM AG. Outfitters, WSF, etc. have had years to try to change the statute since the sheep exception went into effect, and have done nothing.

 

[grizzly_]

I'm way more concerned about why pronghorn in Wyoming are doing so shitty right now that we've cut 35,000 tags than 7 nrs a year not getting to hunt sheep in new Mexico.

Hunting is not going to survive or not due to 7 nr sheep tags.

Yet you've got about dozen posts about it on this thread alone.

 

[BuzzH]

Yet you've got about dozen posts about it on this thread alone.

Where's your concern about 35k less pronghorn tags?

Or the shit seasons being proposed on mule deer in Wyoming?

Don't worry....we got it.

 

[hossblur]

Ok Buzz.

Not sure where anything was mentioned about a sheep show before you used it to reframe, nor do I have the time or energy to continue discussing it on a beautiful morning like this.

I’m going for a walk in the woods. You go get ‘em, I expect your online internet argument record to remained undefeated when I get back

I looked, because you didn't post it.

What exactly is stopping Wisconsin from establishing a sheep population?

I feel Wisconsin OWES me a chance to hunt one there

 

[Deleted member 20812]

There are a number of different posts in this thread, by different folks that contain a lot of truth, even though they appear at odds with one another.

These arguments pain me, and eventually devolve into nothing beneficial. Folks quickly become entrenched in their own hyperbole. Stupid suggestions don’t lend to intellectual discourse.

I’m going to enjoy the sunshine and get some stuff done so I can go spring bear hunting next month.

 

[Buschy]

Because I didn't have to there is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping me or anyone. And many are taking advantage of it. In 5 years when all OTC opportunities for residents are gone who are you going to blame?

I won’t blame anyone? The world changes and I will change with it. Rest assured I will always find a way to pursue my passion.

I think lots of hunters who are complaining as of late need to honesty answer the following question, “Is hunting public land regularly a passion or a hobby?”

 

[hossblur]

I have started compiling a list of the things NR OWE me, for letting them hunt animals in my state (Utah). This list will of course INCLUDE the acreage.

We lost an entire sheep herd on Antelope Island in Utah a few years back.

Kuiu paid for new sheep.

Now, if a clothing company can do can numerous other states can as well.

I can't imagine rolling into Wisconsin to shoot a whitetail, then deciding that gives me the right to bitch about management of them.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I completely agree with the premise we as hunters way too often get sucked into the argument of divvying up the pieces of the pie instead of trying how to make a bigger pie. That is something we could all do better at, enhancing the wildlife resources in our respective states.

That said, given bighorn sheep are struggling across areas of their native range and in prime habitat, it seems rather disingenuous and silly to suggest Wisconsin transplant a big horn sheep herd. That is nothing more than ridiculous hyperbole, and does nothing to add to the conversation.

 

[WIbiggame]

“Is hunting public land regularly a passion or a hobby?”

This is awesome I love it!! To many people watch a YouTube show or hear a podcast and think it's the "cool" thing to do. Hope the fad fizzles out. Doubtful but hey I can dream

And for my answer passion it would be. In the process of looking at moving. Just was pointing out telling people to move to the state can and will have bad outcomes too.

 

[WIbiggame]

I can't imagine rolling into Wisconsin to shoot a whitetail, then deciding that gives me the right to bitch about management of them.

The beauty is that you can and we invite it. Each region has a CDAC committee and residents and non residents are invited to comment. These comments are taken into account and tags are given out accordingly.

 

[Big Fin]

These are always painful discussions to follow. They illustrate how much demand our society has put on the landscapes and what amount of opportunity the shrinking game numbers can provide.

I have seen shrinking opportunity happening since I started hunting multiple states. I see it in my home state. Most often, as numbers and opportunity shrink the default position is to argue about how to allocate the diminishing resource rather than the benefits of working hard to increase the resource.

I never expected western states to undergo the crazy population growth of the last 10-15 years. And I see it continuing. As that happens, I expect those residents to want more of their own wildlife opportunity and I had best accept that hunting out of state will become more and more difficult. As it becomes more difficult, I expect those with power and resources to try leverage the table to their benefit through more outfitter programs, more tags that allow one to buy a ticket to the front of the line, and the host of other machinations we see employed.

I fully respect, and anticipate, residents to do what they feel is best with their wildlife resource. I will adjust accordingly as that changes. Pertinent to the NM sheep topic, I dropped that many years ago when the price rocketed and the allocation dropped. No sense worrying about it. That is what the State of NM decided. I made my decision based on that.

There are some realities that aren't going to change. Wildlife is a scarce resource and getting more scarce as we breed ourselves, and the wild things, out of habitable space. States are provided the authority to manage wildlife, no matter who owns the ground it stands on. Non-residents provide a great amount of funding and advocacy toward the cause of wildlife they may never get a chance to enjoy. Residents of western states pay a huge price for their hunting in the form of economic opportunity costs. Society, including most hunters, is usually too busy until it's too late. We will spend more time arguing than working to improve the outcomes we argue about.

These are just realities I've experienced in years of being involved in hunting and conservation. I can ignore those realities, but ignoring them doesn't change them and likely doesn't result in any progress.

I've boiled it down to a few constants as it relates to my ability to have more hunting opportunity in my home state, or in states I dream of hunting as a non-resident. It takes animals and space to do what is my life's passion; hunting. That requires conservation work.

1. Conservation is always difficult - If it was easy we would have solved all the problems a long time ago. Hell, if it was easy, they'd call it "golf."​

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2. Conservation is always uncomfortable - No matter what cause you work toward for wild things and wild places, someone is going to be upset. Threads on this forum are often an example.​

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3. Conservation is always inconvenient - We never get to put it on our calendars when the threats will arise or when opportunities present themselves. It is easy to be too busy, and we are all busy.​

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4. Conservation is expensive - Always has been, always will be. It will get more expensive. You can't improve access with bake sales. Productive lands need management that isn funded by something more than selling calendars.​

One thing I can do toward the effort of more animals and better access is to engage in conservation efforts that benefit wildlife in all places, not just my back yard. I contribute time and money to national groups, to state affiliate chapters, to (insert here), because I expect that doing so helps all wildlife populations, whether I get to hunt them or not, whether they increase in my home state or some other state.

Watching this dynamic unfold is probably the biggest reason for my expanding dislike of point schemes. Those schemes just slant the table in favor of old gray-haired farts like me and fertilizes the mindset of fighting over a scarce resource due to having paid "something" and with "something" comes an expectation. It is the human condition to expect a return for paying a fee.

Now, rather than focus on what we can do to increase wildlife, we have crazy talk of suing Wyoming for changes to their Big 5, because we paid something. We have people threatening they are done funding conservation groups/efforts because they will get a smaller percentage of opportunity. Again, part or the human condition. But, doesn't mean it is our best path forward.

Whatever happens in NM or WY or AZ or (insert here), the best way to increase the opportunity that can be shared with non-residents is to support more conservation efforts. A lot of that gets done by volunteerism and "boots on the ground" among locals. And a lot of it is funded by non-residents with generous contributions. The combination of "Time, Talent, and Treasure" from all sources has been a proven model for success. Fighting, litigating, and elbowing each other to get to the front of the line for the chance to shoot the last buffalo is hardly the path that we have all benefitted from.

I am grateful that the average Hunt Talker does more with their time, talent, treasure, and advocacy than any group of hunters I know. Countless numbers of you raise huge amounts of money for wildlife, you spend immense hours advocating and volunteering, and do all of it with no expectation that it results in any personal benefit. Thanks to all of you. You are helping the wild places and the wild things we need for this activity we all love.

Carry on .............

 

[grizzly_]

Where's your concern about 35k less pronghorn tags?

Or the shit seasons being proposed on mule deer in Wyoming?

Don't worry....we got it.

Three points...

1. Who said I wasn't concerned?

2. Do you want NR imposing their beliefs on WY game management? I have my opinions about Wyoming's management, but I've never tried to affect change in how somebody else manages their herds.

3. Herd management has nothing to do with the license plate on the tag holders truck.

 

[hossblur]

There's roughly 3000 sheep in NM.

There's 1700 elk.

How many NR elk tags does Michigan give? Not even a 90/10 split.

Zero.

"Luckily" I'm laying around looking like a knife fight victim after a hernia fix so I had the time to go look.

So is that the end of the North American Model?