Population Growth and Hunting in Rocky Mountain States

[mtmuley]

It is. If it were not for BigFin I likely never would have hunted public land in Rocky Mountain States. It was literally him on film doing the hunt and saying hey this is me doing this and it can be done by you to so come out and do it. And after I heard that from him about 50 times over the spell was broken and I realized it was truth, so here I am yet another nonresident coming out to enjoy this amazing resource

Double edged sword. mtmuley

 

[Rancho Loco]

Is that how you got here? mtmuley

We moved out here in 2008 because I was offered a job, and a very generous business owner paid a couple of thousand out of his pocket for our moving expenses. Because at that point we were over a million dollars in the hole and about to lose our house and everything else we owned. We knew we were going to have to relocate because we didn't have many options in California when it came to the homebuilding business which we both worked in. We didn't move to Montana for hunting, or because of some "Best places to live" article and we sure didn't move here for the wages. We moved here because I had a job waiting for me, and the schools were good for the kids. So we moved away from my family with not a dime in our pockets and rented a house sight unseen in a place we visited for a couple of days and didn't know but a couple of people from work. Our first Thanksgiving in Montana was spent roasting a turkey that a guy in line bought for my wife at the T&C because every card she had was declined at the checkout. And that rental house received a nice foreclosure notice on the front door a little later and so our first Christmas in Montana was spent moving to a another rental. Yep, we just some some more evil Californians jacking up the real estate values..

But we didn't sit on our asses in some single wide pissing our paychecks away, calling in on Mondays because we were too hungover to work, showing no initiative while complaining that outsiders were inflating property values. We came here to work our asses off and climb out of a pretty giant hole we dug for ourselves. My wife and I used our educations and our brains and determination and sweat of our brows to make a better life for ourselves and our kids, and 11 years later we're doing pretty well. And most of those same guys who were crying in their trailers about outsiders then are still doing it now. Which conveniently brings me to you.. Because you're one of those hypocritical local losers that constantly whines about outsiders and yet is more than happy to take their money, and tax payments, and business investments, and wages.

So keep following me around on here like some butt hurt chick if it makes you feel better, because you seem like a pretty miserable person in general, and maybe that's the only happiness you can find.

 

[MTGomer]

 

[MTGomer]

Desirable places will continue to get more cramped as technology continues to evolve.

Why pay So Cal or Silicon Valley cost of living, while putting up with all the problems that comes with those areas political leanings when you can sell your million dollar falling apart house, buy a beautiful one in Bozeman for $650k- which to them, is the hottest deal going- and make almost the same wage working remotely.

Where I live now in Arizona is not nearly as nice as the Gallatin Valley but it's alright. I’d say 1/4-1/3 of my neighborhood works atleast part time from home.
You can buy a brand new, never lived in house under full warranty, in a gated community for $210k. There are nice houses down the road in the 180s. Incredivle houses down the other road for 300k.
I’m 45 minutes from Sky Harbor, which is a quick flight to LAX, and a <6 hour drive to LA or San Diego.

If you can work remotely, why live in LA, when you can be my neighbor, sell your crappy house, buy a new one and put half a million dollars cash in your pocket.
Eventually prices will sky rocket here and people will move out looking for the next place.
With technology and the price of urban commercial space, more and more tech companies are going to keep seeing physical office space as an unnecessary overhead. I bet in the coming decade remote work in many industries goes from being a luxury allowed by some companies to the status quo.

 

[Hem]

Bozeman is a shitshow . I'm happy to be in 3Forks but eyeballing the next location as I watch things head our way.

 

[Twolftg]

This article shoots a lot of holes in my thoughts.

US population growth hits 80-year low, capping off a year of demographic stagnation | Brookings

The U.S. population growth is slowing down as baby boomers age and millennials delay starting families. Immigration is the key to continued growth.

www.brookings.edu

I was just going to say millennials are waiting longer and longer to have children and get married.

 

[kansasdad]

I was just going to say millennials are waiting longer and longer to have children and get married.

And too often they are doing it in the listed order.......have a kid or two, and then get married.

 

[onpoint]

Bozeman is a shitshow.
Hem.
Truth.
A simple truth, no value judgment, hypocrisy, nor butt hurtness. Hem, knows - he lives her. I know, I live here.
We make a simple statement of fact, and then the butthurt begins. Be it Bozeman's a shitshow, the internet does indeed have negative impacts on the pursuits discussed on this very site, or that the GOP party is indeed (via their very official platform) a threat to the public land hunter. The internet pugilists on this site come out of the woodwork. Those of us who bring these things up on here usually do it out of genuine concern for the thing (the DIY public land hunter) this site is about.
Yeah, rancho loco, I have lotsa' long time buddies in BozAngeles that made their livings off the boom all the while bitching about it - there is a lot of truth in your statement.
But there is also truth in the lamenting seeing things change for the worse. As per Randy's opening post on this thread. The longer you're around, the more change you witness. Some are graceful about experiencing the change, some not so much - me included.
Dude on another thread says "bunch of pussies" on that thread. Count me a pussy then - then politely kiss mine. If having a brain, giving a shit, saying something about it and showing up repeatedly for what you give a shit about is a pussy........
Randy told me 10 years ago I would find a bunch of like minded individuals on this site. I've worked with and for sportsmen/women for over 30 years and am no stranger to public interaction and the eye opener it provides. This site has furthered my "eye opening" when it come to understanding why us DIY public land hunters face the issues we do.
We are to say the least, an interesting bunch. One who loves to cut off our collective tongue just to spite our face...................
I am going to go attempt to find a parking spot among the hordes of North American recreationalists and toss a salmonfly at a rainbow.
And Hem, I can see your house from mine..........................................................

 

[hank4elk]

....man I am glad NM is not considered a rocky Mtn state anymore...lol . And real glad I did not return to MT for retirement....
I can fall in right behind others who worked hard to get where they are.
And I cannot see anyones house from where I am......................

 

[Straight Arrow]

Know this: The only constant is change. Be a participant in shaping, limiting, influencing the nature of change ... and as a hunter, protecting and preserving wildlife and public lands. Don't merely sit and complain. Support RMEF and other such organizations, volunteer, engage in planning as a relevant community participant.

Lucky to be here, even with all the change in the Gallatin area, still I embrace its values to my love of the rivers, mountains, fish and critters. As a third-generation Montana young man far away from home, wide-eyed and longing for a mountain pass breeze but serving in sultry Vietnam, the epiphany said, "Get your butt back to Montana and don't you ever leave!" Most of my MSU college peers departed Montana to move left and right, directionally and figuratively, across the US for work, but not I. Best decision ever was to live in the Gallatin valley for now over half a century of change. Even with the change, one of the last best places remains such ... as reflected yesterday by my nine-year old granddaughter excitedly watching a yearling black bear and stunningly reddish hued mule deer in the vivid green foliage among the mules' ears flower accents! ... then eagerly learning firearms safety and how to focus her eyes on the open sights of a small rifle.

Realizing it's a sermon to the choir, still I strongly urge you to proactively protect and preserve those values so those beyond our hunting seasons may enjoy and embrace them.

 

[BrokenArrow]

I left Williamson county, TN in ‘99 and moved to Leadville, CO because my home county was the fastest growing in the entire US. I couldn’t get out fast enough. Now Nashville is just a MiNi Los Angeles. Ruined it.
After I got here, I earned a Mickey Mouse outdoor Rec associates degree and guided for a few years. Aka-engaged the tourist industry which provides a significant income for CO.
While doing this I earned a chemistry degree, started a laboratory with my partner and now provide 17 chemistry based jobs in SW CO. All BS to PHD level positions. I try to reciprocate and “build” our local economy, not just use it for my personal playground.
If I can do it, anyone can.
I do believe people are moving here for the right reasons. Hopefully they connect with the natural world and want to protect it, just by living here. I know not everyone is open to receiving the message of the mountains, but it’s pretty undeniable once you set foot in the hills.
I hope there is a balance for all users, but if the animals recede or disappear in their natural habitat, the mtns lose their soul.
I tell folks, “just cause you have the ability to act like god, doesn’t give you the right too.” We need to protect the habitat immediately and protect the “soul” of these places. We are guests in the hills, but we have a unique opportunity to provide protection.
Our current economy is allowing people to make instant gratification decisions based on their “feelings”, not long term outcomes.
The story would be much different if folks were living in cliff dwellings, harvesting corn, beans, and squash, and wondering if they’ll make through the next winter. Cliff dwellers don’t get to decide on “entitled feelings”, they would just have to get to work and let the landscape help shape their future engagement.
Since we do have the luxury of comfortable modernity, Let’s get to work and help shape the environment now so that the folks moving in know what the landscape will “allow” them to do.

 

[mdunc8]

Not disagreeing/agreeing with anything that’s been said. Everyone has to decide what’s right for themselves. As much as I would like to see things return to how they were when I moved out here in 2002 (or even before then), I make the most of what the area has to offer and do what I can to help maintain and restore the surrounding resources. As much as I want a job I don’t hate, I continually find myself turning down opportunities elsewhere that pay more and destroy my body less. I choose to do so, in part, because I can fish four different streams in five evenings and not see another angler (except for the poor saps I drive by who don’t know any better than to spend their time next to the highways along the Gallatin and Madison).

 

[Big Fin]

Any interest in driving this thread back on to the road of "How population growth is going to impact resident hunting I the Rocky Mountain states?"

Everyone sees what is happening. We all have thoughts or opinions on such.

Question becomes, how is this population boom going to change what has historically been very generous resident hunting opportunity and the ability for wildlife to continue at current levels and hopefully higher levels?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Any interest in driving this thread back on to the road of "How population growth is going to impact resident hunting I the Rocky Mountain states?"

Everyone sees what is happening. We all have thoughts or opinions on such.

Question becomes, how is this population boom going to change what has historically been very generous resident hunting opportunity and the ability for wildlife to continue at current levels and hopefully higher levels?

The stark reality is that liberal hunting opportunities will necessarily become more limited, with critical planning to allow for appropriate game harvest in concert with good wildlife management plans and also allowing for high quality hunting experiences.
I hope more stakeholders will eventually be involved in funding wildlife management, with commensurately more influence on wildlife related decisions. More stakeholders in numbers and by interests, stakeholders such as non-hunting wildlife advocates, bird watchers, habitat landowners, outfitters, wild game processors, taxidermists, photographers, wildlife watcher guides, and others who presently don't necessarily contribute through Pittman Robertson, Dingell-Johnson, or other direct funding avenues.

Also it requires significantly more emphasis on growth and development planning with respect to the urban wildland (wildlife) interface in places such as the Bozeman area. As someone directly and actively involved in attempting to influence planning in my little community, I can tell you it is not easy in the Rocky Mountain area since many move here (and even are born here) with the impression that it is still the wild west and they can do whatever they damned well please on their twenty-acre ranchette. Zoning is a profane zee-word to this highly energized group of growth planning opponents. The accompanying attitude about commercial and residential development of lands which heretofore has been critically adverse to wildlife habitat (whether calving ground, winter range, year around habitat, or buffer zones) has significantly and adversely affected wildlife habitat in western states and elsewhere. IMO the nation, states, counties and municipalities must form a collaborative approach to protecting and preserving wildlife and habitat ... an approach with huge challenges. It is only possible with the right representation on commissions and in the legislatures and Congress. So here we are again to politics.

 

[mdunc8]

I’m not familiar with much outside of Montana, but based on conversations I’ve had with the powers that be within FWP, I don’t think anything changes with hunting opportunity until those people retire and hunters quit buying into the opportunity that exists regardless of the quantity and quality of the resources. Shoulder seasons are a prime example of this. Despite what folks on here say about the extra opportunity, it’s been my experience on job sites, in bars, and while hunting, that there’s widespread support among hunters for shoulder seasons. It’s only when licenses begin to go unsold that we’ll see a change in Montana’s approach to managing game species.

 

[mdunc8]

Not to derail the thread, but I think an even more eminent dilemma is that of angling opportunity, which has rarely been restricted outside of trout seasons. More people = more anglers (probably to a greater degree than hunters) and less water. While you can improve range conditions, it’s difficult to create clean, cold water during the summer. As can be seen over on the Madison, anglers and the community in general don’t take kindly to those who even mention the idea of restricting opportunity. Even though I’ve had them to myself until now, I expect to start having some company on the little streams I fish.

 

[Sytes]

Need to focus on youth hunt / fish type camps. Incorporate family settings to embolden them along the outdoor path.

My fear from what I've seen... Families not familiar with hunting define their emotional thoughts on the wonderful "objective" media that spotlights the likes of murdering innocent giraffes, etc.
Then their exit from the crud that is concrete 4wd fancied, and enter a world of amazing opportunity - yet inadvertently accompanied by the political influenced opinions they fail to acknowledge was a principal reason for escaping their concrete jungle...

Something needs to be present to bridge their *impression to the actual realities the Rocky Mountain experience provide.

Is it possible? Meh, I give it a 20-30% chance... Better than 0%.

Have a new family that's moved (work move). East coast, D.C.... No real concept of large swaths of public land... Eager to experience what it offers. We're off to the China Wall here beginning of September. Fishing and amazing sights to enjoy. The political shovel will rest peacefully in the garage.

 

[Straight Arrow]

The proportional reality is that, regardless of success in recruitment, the hunting and fishing segment of the overall taxpaying population is going to remain pretty small. That is why I believe it critical to bring in other stakeholders to support and assist in funding wildlife and fisheries ... and hunting and fishing traditions. Funding mechanisms such as the LWCF need to be developed to further enhance conservation ... and acquisition, protection, and preservation of habitat.

Back to the OP, that is what I see necessary to maintain (let alone increase) the wonderful hunting opportunities of present day.

 

[Pucky Freak]

This is not a human population issue. MT population could go to 2 million and could have zero effect on game populations or hunting opportunity. Resident hunter numbers would still level out, then shrink. It's a land use and land access issue. If diverse stakeholders work together to protect critical habitat now, the rest is 10 times easier to maintain a public land hunting legacy. Most people don't know or don't care that a mule deer can't live it's entire life on 100 acres like a whitetail can. Reduced NR tag opportunity is not a long term problem. make 100% of BLM accessible to the public with a stroke of a pen and that issue is solved in an instant.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Any interest in driving this thread back on to the road of "How population growth is going to impact resident hunting I the Rocky Mountain states?"

Everyone sees what is happening. We all have thoughts or opinions on such.

Question becomes, how is this population boom going to change what has historically been very generous resident hunting opportunity and the ability for wildlife to continue at current levels and hopefully higher levels?

Just get rid of wolves and equilibrium and global harmony will be restored.

I think the handwriting has been on the wall for a long time that there will have to be a reduction in either length of season or efficiency of harvest. Quality of experience and health of the resource has been declining in proportion to the human caused strain on wildlife.

On a positive note, we in Montana are blessed to have a huge variety of outdoor activities available for the creative and motivated. My biggest regret is that for the foreseeable future working for a living is going to continue to get in the way of a good time.